Easy Way To Figure Out Hit Factor Beforehand?

[Steve Anderson]

Sorry...just trying to help.

[Sharyn]

Ack! These apologies are killing me!

Rikarin, your original question has fundamental incongruencies. It shouldn't be answered in the way you want it to be. Don't waste your time and energy trying to analyze it and incorporating it into your practice.

That being said, here's how Matt Burkett explained HF/speed/points to me:

Know the points available for the stage then figure out your HF by adding up the requirements of the stage:

Draw

Transitions

Movement

Reloads

Splits

hypothetical examples:

100 point stage

1.55 draw

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

1.50 reload

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

2.50 movement

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

.35 transition

.20 split

10 seconds total time, 100 stage points = 10 HF stage

That means: 100 points in 10 seconds, or 10 points per second. You have 1 second to score 2 Alphas per target.

Now, on a stage you've calculated as a 5 HF (ex: 100 points in 20 seconds), 5 points per second. You have 2 seconds to score 2 Alphas per target.

On a 20 HF stage (ex: 100 points in 5 seconds), 20 points per second. You have 0.5 seconds to score 2 Alphas per target.

Make sense?

Edited October 27, 2005 by Sharyn

[GuildSF4]

Nice post Sharyn.

[Sharyn]

ok, that was Speed/Accuracy 101... now onto the more advanced course, Speed/Accuracy 201:

Here's an actual stage I shot with Mike Voigt and he printed out the results for me. This is so you can more accurately visualize what you're analyzing with the numbers:

#1   1.55	 1.55  <---- steel plate
#2   .55	   2.10
#3   .18	   2.28
#4   .38	   2.66
#5   .19	   2.85
#6   .29	   3.14
#7   .19	   3.33
#8   .44	   3.77
#9   .20	   3.97
#10  .40	   4.37
#11  .20	   4.57
#12  .52	   5.09  <---- movement around a barrel
#13  .20	   5.29
#14  .57	   5.86  <---- steel plate

(assuming all A's... he he... that's an 11.9454 HF stage for me)

The first question I asked when I saw the print out was... .55 and .44 transitions? WTF??? He laughed and said "That's transitions AND movement." In order to fully understand the numbers, you'd have to see the course.

This stage was more about quick movement (point A to point B, forced by the start box and the barrel) than fast splits or transitions. You had to shoot as fast as you could move... or move as fast as you could shoot. Accuracy was forced by putting in the steel plates (any steel hit is a perfect Alpha). Your splits/transitions are going to be regulated by the distance of the targets/precision necessary for the shot (an A-zone at 20 yards is much smaller than an A-zone at 5 yards). These numbers may also be incorporated into movement required.

So, if you shoot 100 points while standing still, no reload required, in 10 seconds as opposed to 50 points with a lot of movement and required reloads, in 5 seconds (both 10 HF stages)... you cannot simply look at the total points of the stage or the HHF. You must look at it taking your OWN shooting abilities into consideration.

This is a lot of information... about $1000 worth. I hope you can use the information to make better/more informed decisions about how to approach a stage and "make it your b*tch". I hope it helps you understand why your original question has received the answers it did.

edited to add: Speed/Accuracy 202

Edited October 27, 2005 by Sharyn

[Jake Di Vita]

Way too personal? Dogma?

You take a response saying speed is an illusion as a personal attack?

You should know by now if you ask a question on a public forum with thousands of members you will get a multitude of responses. If that wasn't what you were looking for...sorry....it's the nature of the beast, but implying that anyone on this thread is doing anything but trying to help you is down right insulting.

[XRe]

Jake,

but implying that anyone on this thread is doing anything but trying to help you is down right insulting.

I don't think Rika's implied or stated that anyone is doing anything *but* trying to help. If you're insulted because she said some answers weren't helpful to her, that's your deal, not hers - it's a completely different thing. Flex's statement could be taken the wrong way - though I don't think he meant it to be, and Rika might have been a little bit hypersensitive when she read it.

I agree with you, though, that one should expect a wide range of results, when you ask a question on a forum like this.... We also shouldn't expect our responses to be useful to the person all the time, either

BTW - "dogma: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true ... or ... a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative". I fail to see how that would be taken as insulting, either, especially w/ my explanation. Hope you didn't.

[Sharyn]

Hey... Knock it off you bickering beotches! Right or wrong you are taking away from the point of the subject.

[XRe]

Hey... Knock it off you bickering beotches! Right or wrong you are taking away from the point of the subject.

That's "Mr. Whiny Bickering Beotch", to you, ma'am Isn't thread drift, and pointless argument also a necessary part of Internet Forum life???

[Rikarin]

I was crying river yesterday and even asked forum admin to lock the thread, It's just really really got me. Finally came out from "burnt out and I wanna quit", I am quite frgile and being a baby. Its not your fault, Steve, Flex. I was hypersensitive as RXe says. My applogy. I know all of you are telling the right thing and trying to help. I have no doubt at all.

Shryn got it. I just need too much approval from others. Its' upbringing I guess. You American's are "I am always right" people. Japanese is "Society is always right" people.

Shooting - man thing, American thing - is so foreign and challenging, every step of the way I need nods from others. When the nods don't come from topdogs, I loose confidence. And this time, I know I am not doing right but doing it anyway.. so expecting nods is wrong of me .

Thanks for the how to figure out" methods, many of you. Since I am finally curious about HF, thought I take this opportunity to try to figure out. Never imagined it inflates into this much.

And thanks XRe for explaning where I come from which I have been not able to.

Jake, you just don't know the experience of virtually 80% or people you meet at the range "trying to help". (Boo Radly pointed out so well on this, thanks.) Let me repeat, I now people are saying right thing and trying to help! But sad nature of the beast of "help" is, if the help is not right one at the right timing, it doesn't actually helps. Though, you are right it is nature of the beast the forum. I think I was expecting different thing (for your eyes, wrong thing) from this thread. My original question itself is too much of dichotomy and no wonder invited confusion.

[Flexmoney]

Expectations can be a tricky thing.

This thread reminds me of some of the "Blue Book" essay test from college. I always thought those were poor gauges of knowledge. With an essay test, the student has to guess what the professor is really asking. Then, the professor has to read the students answers and guess what the student is trying to say.

It is easy to see where there could be misunderstandings.

The question(s) that started this thread seemed multi-faceted. The topic generated plenty of discussion (often a goal of this forum, I think). It looked to me as if the replies were addressing the topic. Apparently, there was some misunderstandings.

Too bad. We had something like a half-dozen of the better shooter in the country sharing their insight. I hope they don't get discouraged, and that they continue to share in forum discussions (especially about the actual "shooting").

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

[edit: I typed this post while other were posting, it seems. This isn't in response to any recent posts.]

[XRe]

Ok, group hug???

[Sharyn]

I just need too much approval from others. Its' upbringing I guess. You American's are "I am always right" people. Japanese is "Society is always right" people.

Shooting - man thing, American thing - is so foreign and challenging, every step of the way I need nods from others. When the nods don't come from topdogs, I loose confidence. And this time, I know I am not doing right but doing it anyway.. so expecting nods is wrong of me .

It's not a Japanese/American thing... maybe a male/female thing... most likely an upbringing thing. I am the same way... in constant need of approval. It makes this game very hard because an individual performance is determined by the performance of others.

Hang in there. It gets easier.

Group hug??? Can I just hug Jake in his Lime Green Thingie?

[XRe]

Group hug??? Can I just hug Jake in his Lime Green Thingie?

Only if you take a picture and send it to us

[TDean]

Jake has a lime green thong?

[Jake Di Vita]

*Paging admin...paging admin - Lock thread immediately!*

[Sean Gaines]

I guess not to get back on the topic, but why would anyone want to try to figure the hit factor beforehand anyways? I think more importantly I am looking for sweet spots and areas in the stage where I can kill time, and where I need to make a mag change etc. what is the benefit of knowing the hit factor beforehand? If you spend more time on things that you control ie making your shots, and footwork etc, I think you could benefit more, than guessing at something you are only going to be approximate at best.

[Jake Di Vita]

The main thing it is useful for is determing how your going to shoot a stage. For example: Where it is best to shoot certain targets, if it is worth shooting at disappearing targets, etc.

[mcoliver]

Sing with me

When you're weary,

Feeling small,

When tears are in your eyes,

We will dry them all;

We're on your side...ohhh

When times get rough

And friends just can't be found,

Like a bridge over troubled water

We will lay me down.

When you're down and out,

When you are'nt on the range.

When A's are just so hard

We will comfort you.

We'll take your part....oohh

When darkness comes

And pain is all around,

Like a bridge over troubled water

We will lay me down.

Sail on Rikarin,

Sail on by.

Your time has come to shine.

All your hits are on their way.

See how they shine....ohhh

If you need some friends

We're cheering right behind.

Like a bridge over troubled water

We will ease your mind.

[short_round]

... why would anyone want to try to figure the hit factor beforehand anyways?

This comes from the theory that shooting fast and shooting accurately are mutually exclusive. For a high hit factor stage you would theoretically want to shoot faster. For a low hit factor stage you would theoretically want to shoot more accurately.

[bpgorbe]

I guess not to get back on the topic, but why would anyone want to try to figure the hit factor beforehand anyways?

I use the estimated hit factor to decide issues like movement and make-up shots, not speed. Sometimes it's better to take the long shot/head shot and lose a couple points instead of moving closer. And sometimes the hit factor is so low that turning those C's and D's into A's is worth the extra shot.