Easy Way To Figure Out Hit Factor Beforehand?

[iweiny]

El Presedente

2 Billy 63 B Limited 10 52 10 6.27 6.6986 48.9479 81.58%

3 Ira 18 C Limited 10 57 0 9.88 5.7692 42.1566 70.26%

Just some food for thought,

Ira

Consider the following ... shooter 2 shot 3.61 seconds faster, was 15 points down of shooter 3, but ended up with almost a full hit factor more and 11+% more points for the stage. Of course at the higher levels none of this is acceptable, but in the brush league where the fun boys and fun girls run this is real.

short_round, I admit, I lost the match to Billy on a lack of Speed. But not on this stage... My time however would have been at least 1sec faster had I not blown the reload. I suppose I could have throw caution to the wind and shot the second string AFAP, but... Live and learn. Anyway, to get back on topic, that had nothing to do with how fast I shot. I kind of feel like sticking to my game plan and getting my points salvaged what could have been a slow AND not acurate run!

Rika, I did not mean to get to serious on you, or lecture you. Sorry... God knows I am not the one on here with all the answers. However, I kind of take pride in the fact I get my points. True, as short_round mentioned above, it does not always meet with absolute success, but I have fun doing it. Anyway, it is definatly fun to just shoot fast, if you are doing well with that, and more importantly, enjoy that more, then great.

Sorry,

Ira

[BritinUSA]

I used to go fo all A's to the point my sight stops completely on each targets. That was a drag. I used to shoot all "control" and took the fun of shooting away from me. ( Did you guys read my post on burnt out? ) Now, I am doing all "abandon" shoting fast as possible my body can move. And funny thing is except for almost consistant Mikes on each stage of course, my overall scores aren't that bad and I am hitting As most of the times.

I know some people who started out shooting really fast, lost of D's and Misses but eventually they LEARNED to see what they needed and their accuracy improved. Most people seem to start slow and get QUICKER, but everyone's different.

It's worth pursuing your current plan of going quicker and not worry too much about the score.

I made the same mistake at last years Nationals I went super-careful on every shot, my times were slow and I had a terrible match. I like the analogy of a 'slider' between control and abandon. I think mine's a little too close to the control side as well.

And funny thing is except for almost consistant Mikes on each stage of course, my overall scores aren't that bad and I am hitting As most of the times.

... then this style of shooting may be the right way for you. I would pursue this for a few months, if the A's keep going up and the MISSes start going down then you will have found the perfect style for you. And it sounds like it's more fun too

[LPatterson]

I guess the idea of knowing how to determine hit factors is necessary if the goal is to be a GM. My goal is to shoot the most A's I can in the lowest possible time I can manage. I have read & reread the thread on a sub 3 second El Prez and when I practiced it I was doing 10's. So I spent a week and about 800 rounds practicing so I could get to 9 sec but usually down a couple. The last local match I shot a 60 in 10.05 but won the stage anyway in Limited 10 as the next best shooter had a 53 in 9.20. These times won't get me out of C class but it was nice to be a stage winner in my division.

My advice is be the best that you can be and don't worry about hit factors.

[Rikarin]

Rika, I did not mean to get to serious on you, or lecture you. Sorry... God knows I am not the one on here with all the answers. However, I kind of take pride in the fact I get my points. True, as short_round mentioned above, it does not always meet with absolute success, but I have fun doing it. Anyway, it is definatly fun to just shoot fast, if you are doing well with that, and more importantly, enjoy that more, then great.

No problem, Ira. Its good to know other people find something else -- getting points -- fun. And other people approach same problem differently. Being woman and all, everybody wants to give me lecture all the time and I decided a cookie cutter answer "I know what I am doing thank you. I don't need your lecture" hehehehe Besides, you never lecture, seriously. Just always give me support like, wonderful shade in hot days.

I know the reason I need to take so much time on distant target which require Type 4/5 or even 3 focus is my index is not solid and need extra time to find the FS. Being cross eye dominant, my index is bit crooked compare to non-cross eye dominat person. So, I need extra practice to make this crooked index as "natural". (no need to give me advice on this. I had extended conversations with Brian) Which require a lot of dry practice, that is oh so boring right now. I don't want to bore myself any further right now.

I have habit of jerking and usually, when I shoot careful, shots go to 8 o'clock, since I stop the gun and jerk. But this last week, most of the shots ended up 1 o'clock.... I was told I am releasing the shots too early now. So, I know what to do right?

My question and my wish to figure out PF has very regitimate reason for me. It's one of the experiment at this moment.

And thanks BritinUSA. I can speed up more if I enter/exit from shooting position bit quicker. When I watch my video, I goes "bang, bang, let's see, move!" I need to get rid of this "let's see" pause and crank up my slider of control/abondon bit more for now. This is fun!

Oh, BTW, Brian's words on control/abondon is here

Contol/Abondon

[benos]

I'm gonna have to disagree. At the top level points are what wins. Here is a fantastic example from Georgia State this past year. This is 03-06....A Barrel of Fun.

1 Max Michel Jr. 78 GM Open 79 0 5.56 14.2086 80 100.00%

2 Jake Di Vita 244 GM Open 74 0 5.56 13.3094 74.9372 93.67%

3 Brad Balsley 232 M Open 73 0 5.53 13.2007 74.3251 92.91%

4 Chris Patty 253 M Open 75 0 6.36 11.7925 66.3964 83.00%

5 Derek Janowicz 241 M Open 69 0 5.94 11.6162 65.4038 81.75%

I had the exact same time as Max....he won a 14 hit factor stage on points. I think that is pretty amazing and it really shows how important points are...even on a stage where 3 people ran it with more than 13 points per second.

+10

If you drop a lot of points and still win a stage, that just means no one else was there who could shoot the stage properly.

Don't mentally rehearse stages as "targets." Instead, imagine stages as a string of A boxes. Now shoot those. (For no-shoots, imagine an "appropriately positioned" A box.)

be

[j1b]

I'm going to have to go with the "shoot as many points as possible as fast as you can" group.

And I know you said you didn't need to be lectured on the basics of shooting A's and seeing what you need to. But think about that for a second . . .

All things sports are about foundation. The foundation you build and maintain is the core of your shooting. Are there shortcuts that will get you there quicker? Certainly. Will those short cuts set you back when you want to get to the next level? Certainly.

Forget about what's needed to perform the best on the stage compared to others. That is, frankly, not a winnable argument. If you go out and shoot all A's but were 3 seconds slow then you would intuitively think I've got to go faster. If you drop 20 points and shoot it 3 seconds faster then you'd think "I need to be more accurate"

I've been involved in a couple of PM messages on this very topic.

A match is made up of several stages. Your performance on a single stage, in the grand scheme of things, has little impact - it's the match that counts. Blow a single stage and this is less relevant - but perform well compared to others on a single stage matters very little because it is the aggregate that gets you the overall performance you are looking for.

Figure out the best way you can shoot the stage and execute. That, IMO, is the only way to maintain a foundation that will empower you to see continued growth over the years you play in the sport.

Just my $.02.

J

[Steve Moneypenny]

Don't mentally rehearse stages as "targets." Instead, imagine stages as a string of A boxes. Now shoot those. (For no-shoots, imagine an "appropriately positioned" A box.)

Wow... very awesome concept i shall write this down and test it...man that's just taking visualization to the next level!

[ong45]

Rika,

I would agree with most of whats posted here and say don't sweat it too much right now....

I approach a stage this way , 5 or lower hit factor - Make doubly sure to get good hits and make up shots as necessary.

9 hit factor or higher, might not be worth the time to make up C or D shots.

James

[Steve Anderson]

Guys, if you consciously make a decision to shoot fast, you will be very unhappy with the result UNLESS you are 100% "on" the day yuo make that decision.

Here's the problem. the conscious mind can only think about one thing, and the subconscious mind makes it happen at the peak of your natural ability.

You want speed? the body serves it up with fries and a shake, with no other concerns.

You want points? You get those at your CURRENT NATURAL SPEED LEVEL.

There is no speed to be had on match day that wasn't there the day before.

Also, you cannot trick the conscious mind...it KNOWS what you really want. If you approach a stage with a thought of speed in the back corner cabinet of your mind, the coscious mind will find that thought and determine that it is what you really want.

Conscious to Subconscious: Get ready to perform, something's about to happen

Sub to con: Standing by...what are we thinking about up there?

Con to sub: Well, he's chanting something about alphas, but he's picturing going really fast

Sub to con: So he wants speed?

Con to sub: Sure looks that way...look at his mental picture.

Sub to con: Holy crap...We're not that fast right now

Con to sub: I know, we're gonna have to forget about points and try to go faster to give him what he wants.

Sub to con: Roger that, good luck.

SA

[eric nielsen]

That's a great post, Steve.

[Rikarin]

Steve, I enjoyed your book!

Con to sub: I know, we're gonna have to forget about points and try to go faster to give him what he wants.

But that's exactly I am doing now. Forgadda about the points. As Brian's Control/Abandon tips says, "....instead of the goal of shooting all A's, just shoot as fast as possible with the goal of only keeping all your hits on the entire target.(If this sounds crazy, this drill is definitely for you.)"

I asked about HF because I WANT to decide to shoot fast for the sake of recovering from burnt out and as Brian says " The key is, every time, before you shoot, DECIDE exactly what you are going to do" and I wanted to pick stages according to HF. HF can be the parameter for permission not to care about accuracy.

Sure his original idea was doing so "at the practice" but for me doing this at practice is not crazy idea. Doing this at local match, which I have every weekend, therefore its sorta practice for me, was absolutely crazy idea. I was able to do only because I burnt out so much I didn't care at all! But funny thing is, that put me in a new place (oh thanks gracious) I can have fun and work at something at the same time.

I will just give this thread to others because there are a lot of great shooters commenting great things benefit other member. Me personally don't want to read about any right thing I must be doing right now. Dudes, For the 14month since I started to compete, I pushed myself really really hard and came really far and really tired from it.

[boo radley]

I will just give this thread to others because there are a lot of great shooters commenting great things benefit other member. Me personally don't want to read about any right thing I must be doing right now. Dudes, For the 14month since I started to compete, I pushed myself really really hard and came really far and really tired from it.

It's a good thread, and I've learned some great things that *will* benefit me, and I thank you for starting it.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if you don't have yourself in a nasty loop condition?

That is -- (and here's where the unfair part comes in) -- as a woman, you receive an inordinate amount of unwanted advice and attention on your performance when you shoot. I'm still pretty new to this, but I'll bet almost every squad has a self-appointed IPSC "Guru", telling you how not to worry about time, etc..Perhaps someone else has a wife or girl-friend shooting, and they're taking a painfully careful sight-picture on *every* target, coming in dead-last, but hey, that's the 'right' way, and you should emulate HER as an example, etc., etc.

That's got to be frustrating as hell.

However, until you start spanking these folks -- not literally, or perhaps literally -- they won't shut up, or at least become less offensive with advice.

A vicious circle, that I don't see a wait out of, without improving match peformance, which goes back to all those things you're really burnt out on. Ugh.

[Flexmoney]

Easy Way To Figure Out Hit Factor Beforehand?

...to decide if I should go for speed or accuracy

Speed...what an illusion.

[vincent]

That's a great post, Steve.

I second that!

[benos]

A good score results from shooting good points quickly.

Thus, shooting good points only is wrong; as is just shooting quickly.

be

[Rikarin]

Easy Way To Figure Out Hit Factor Beforehand?

...to decide if I should go for speed or accuracy

Speed...what an illusion.

Even after my repeated wish and effort to defend myself, Quoting my original topic title is way too personal and this coming from the #1 admin, totally knocked my confiednce out.

[XRe]

Some are too stuck in their dogma to allow others to spread their wings, it would seem.....

[Flexmoney]

Wow. Sorry. I really don't know what to say. And, I am at a loss as how to respond.

[Sharyn]

However, until you start spanking these folks -- not literally, or perhaps literally -- they won't shut up, or at least become less offensive with advice.

Sadly, this is not true. They don't shut up, what they say and do just changes a little.

Rikarin, try not to get frustrated or lose confidence when you don't get the responses you'd like. It's just not worth the energy. And when you're "burnt out" or not having fun anymore, you don't have that energy to spare. Defending yourself is a waste of energy too. Just do what you want to do, take what you can out of what is said and chalk it all up as a learning experience. Sometimes we just have to find the answers we need, at the time that we need them and in the way that we need them. I understand.

It seems like you're grasping to find the "fun" again... if so, shoot however you want to shoot and be happy with that. Don't look to others for their approval of your fun. Someone will always be able to criticize you, I promise. And, like you, I have some great mentors... but I still have to search within to find my answers. Shoot for yourself and do whatever it takes to make 'your self' happy.

My philosophy on this game is that all the answers are there... Flexmoney, for example, gives many of them (sometimes in interesting ways ). However, we all need to go through the process of learning for ourselves... then, and only then, will the 'answers' make sense. Do whatever you need to do to discover and experience those answers. I listen and I hear but that doesn't mean I can do... or that I can do, yet. Hear what people are saying in this topic, take what you can out of it and remember the rest for later. You never know when it will come in handy.

I look at your HF question from these perspectives:

a ) You want to improve your competitive game? Listen to what The Great Minds of this forum are telling you. Incorporate the information into your shooting.

b ) You're burnt out and looking to find the "fun" again? Don't worry about what anyone tells you. HF shouldn't matter to you. Just shoot fast when you feel like it!

You seem caught somewhere between the two.

Sorry if I'm one of the 'lecturers' now. It's just that I can totally relate to what you're experiencing and I'm offering what has helped me through it.

Hope that... errr... helps!

[JFD]

All these thoughtful responses haven't been wasted. I've been reading intently and am most appreciative.

[hopalong]

Nice Sharyn!!!!!

I too have struggled with partial success, and then have worked harder and harder with more partial success.

Here recently it has been.....Alright, let's just go have a good time shooting with my friends, seeing others I haven't seen in a while and not worrying about where I end up at all!!!!! No matter what kind of match.....club, state, Area, and if they were to be shot even the Nationals now for me.

Rika, I feel that is what you are wanting right now....so just go shoot, chit chat with the guys, Make fun of D. Carden shooting his Glock and quit worrying about the minor stuff.....With time it will all come out in the wash.

Now a little serious stuff on Hit factor for serious times..........the guy that got me into shooting USPSA breaks stages down like this.

100 point or more stage........you can aford to drop a few extra points to gain some speed.

90 or less points........Points are more important than speed.

That is a general observation that seems to work quite well, most of the time.

Good luck, HAVE FUN !!!!

HOPALONG

[XRe]

I think what Rika's balking at is that she asked a simple question about gaming strategy - and got back a lot of dogmatic (if true...) response. She responded with, basically - "look, I know all that, I have a need to experiment right now, I'm interested in knowing the answer to my question" and got more dogmatic response.

The dogma, in this case, is perhaps the closest thing to a "one true way" we have, but one must find one's own way to that path. I think those who have found the path already sometimes forget that, and in trying to help, they squash the adventurous, curious spirit of the questioner. After all, language cannot truly define what we experience - we must experience to understand. We cannot help or force another to understand (which is what some of the dogmatic approach amounts to), only help them to get on the path.... I think Brian says something to that effect in "The Good Book".

I hope I haven't offended anyone - realize it's not necessarily a bad thing to have dogma, or beliefs, or experiences, and I'm certainly not putting anyone down for it - I share it with you. All I'm pointing out is - try to put yourself in the questioner's shoes, and remember what it was like to discover those things yourself. Don't deny them that joy

+1 to Sharyn's and Sam's posts. Rika already knows the rest of my thoughts

[JD45]

Here is one prediction. If Rikarin is having more fun shooting that way, and really wants to keep at it, and keeps her eyes open, she will soon start to make up some of those misses. Then, a little further down the road, she will make up almost all of them. And one day the eyes will learn to wait long enough to prevent the miss in the first place.

I try what she is doing in practice alot and it does seem to help.

[mcoliver]

Is there any EASY way to approx. decide which way to go? All I want to know is speed vs accuracy decision. Thanks!!

No easy way to decide, really, but I can offer what I've been doing to achieve some success.

To some extent it will, but generally the stage will not tell you how you're suppose to shoot it to win. Instead, look at the field and identify those with the same current skill level as yours (I'm sure you've already identified them by now ). Find out their hit factors for that stage if they've shot it already.

Then knowing how they performed (time-wise and point-wise) you now have to tap on what you know about your own skills to decide at which avenue you will "kill" them. Sometimes, the solution isn't even in the shooting. Most times you only need to shoot your own game and do that in every stage.

But given the chance, crush them in both avenues, point-wise and time-wise. You'll never know you might need that extra buffer for the next stages.

The difficulty arises when you do not know who you're competing with and what their performance is. This being the case, the safest approach to a stage would be to shoot it at your current skill level that guarantees a consistent performance in EVERY stage. Easier said than done.

Edited October 27, 2005 by mcoliver

[Clay1]

Rikarin, I know that you have read Brian's book already. I think that Saul Kirsch's new book: Thinking Practical Shooting is exactly what you need right now.

Saul addresses your specific question directly in the book, but he also talks about the mental aspects of this game. He goes into things like positive self talk and feeling good about your shooting. I think this would be a great read for you like is has been for me. Have about 25 pages left to read then the hard work comes of implimenting the strategies. Good luck on your shooting.

One comment on all of the responses that you have had to your inquiry. Obviously most of us have had the same question in the past. No matter who answered or how they answered, we are really a small group of like minded people who visit this board. Yes, it is the World Wide great internet, but it is still a small group who visit daily and share ideas on how to play this game better. I believe that everyone that has responded wants to help you toward success. Many have different views on how that is best accomplished. In the end you make up your own mind.

Now go read Saul's book and shoot well!

Rick