Easy Way To Figure Out Hit Factor Beforehand?

[Rikarin]

I am soooo math challenged! I read it over and over and have someone explained to me but still can't figure it out. I know the fomula for hit factor, sure. But it doesn't mean if I can decided before I shoot the stage if I should go for speed of accuracy.

Is there any EASY way to approx. decide which way to go? All I want to know is speed vs accuracy decision. Thanks!!

[BritinUSA]

Generally speaking if it requires more than 2 shooting positions then go for accuracy. 1 - 2 shooting positions, go for speed.

[Ron Ankeny]

Can I add a question? What would happen in the long haul if you forget about trying to predetermine hit factors and just shoot for A's as quickly as possible?

[AlamoShooter]

Can I add a question? What would happen in the long haul if you forget about trying to predetermine hit factors and just shoot for A's as quickly as possible?

I know ! Iknow ! , Ask me! ask me!

Ahh = !You end up with a better looking target?! A's look cool, sounds better too when the target is being scored.

Five target 10 A's = 50 points, = shot in 10 seconds,=hit factor = 5/ or, shot in 5 seconds = HF of 10

same targets 5A's 5C's = 40 points, shot in 8 seconds= hit factor=5/ or, shot in 4 seconds - HF of 10

can you shoot C 20% faster than A? or will you end up with a D= dog

[Jake Di Vita]

Bingo....

Always shoot as quickly as you can while keeping them in the center of the target.

[BritinUSA]

If you shoot all A's you may be going too slow... Determining the Stage Factor allows you to determine an acceptable sight picture. On a stage where speed is more important a few C's may be acceptable if it saves a fraction of a second.

Edited October 24, 2005 by BritinUSA

[Clay1]

For someone like me this exact question is truly the evil that must be avoided at all costs. After wasting months on working on speed, the truth is to shoot them as fast as you can while getting all A's. Yes, push yourself in practice so that at a match your speed to shoot A's is faster than before, but at a match try to shoot 95% of the available points.

Rikarin, if you are newer, like you and I, you have to get your shots. You try for all A's and if you happen to shoot a C that happens. If you say just to blaze away then you will shoot Mikes and D's. I'm just a C class shooter trying to get better.

I think speed comes from understanding simple things like how Brian explains the different kinds of target focus at different distances or different difficulties of the shot. This has been said many times, but see what you need to see to make the shot. I've read these kind of statements for months, but it seems like they are just beginning to sink in.

There was another thread not all that long ago about trying to shoot above your ability level at a match. If you shoot to 95% of your practice skill level for speed and you shoot 95% of the total points you are a winner no matter where you place in that particular match.

[vincent]

From what I have seen most match winners shoot at 95% of the available points. In some really fast stages this may drop to 90%. Therefore I only try to divide stages into two groups - a "regular" stage and a "speed stage".

For a "regular stage" and major PF this translates to (3) A's to every (1) C. As you can see this basically means shoot for A's and accept the occasional C - just like everyone says.

In a "speed shoot" which is usually a "stand and deliver" and major PF this translates to (1) A to every (1) C. Therefore you should make sure that you get some A's but you can accept quite a few C's.

In either case you must not "shoot brown" and mikes are just not going to help.

I think this simple system is easier to work with. With it you shoot most stages for 95%. However you have to be on the lookout for the occasional "speed stage" and make sure you recognize it and shoot accordingly.

-Vincent

[Flexmoney]

Most (all?) of my Grand Master classifiers came from a goal of shooting smooth Alphas. (vision is a good cue)

My best...most consistent... match performances have occurred with OUT a focus on speed.

If I were one to play mind-games with my shooting competition...I would try to get them shooting for speed. It would be easy. Speed looks cool. Everybody wants to look cool. For every stage they would burn down...they would likely crash and burn on two more.

In my opinion, most shooters don't need to really worry about this question. I hate to label and stereo-type, but I would say that the question isn't a factor unless the shooter is competing on the level of a solid Master class.

I might go so far as to say that the focus on speed is what keeps many shooters from moving into and beyond the solid Master level.

Shooting Minor power factor...it is an complete non-issue. Get the Alphas.

[iweiny]

Rika,

I think BritinUSA is about right. However, consider the following match results from Saturday: (Last names removed to protect the inocent)

El Presedente

1 Ty 9 B Limited 10 56 0 6.82 8.2111 60.0000 100.00%

2 Billy 63 B Limited 10 52 10 6.27 6.6986 48.9479 81.58%

3 Ira 18 C Limited 10 57 0 9.88 5.7692 42.1566 70.26%

4 Bob 28 C Limited 10 54 0 9.38 5.7569 42.0667 70.11%

5 Pete 70 C Limited 10 54 0 9.63 5.6075 40.9750 68.29%

6 Jim 6 C Limited 10 53 0 9.78 5.4192 39.5991 66.00%

7 Robert 37 U Limited 10 55 0 11.07 4.9684 36.3050 60.51%

8 Kevin 35 U Limited 10 53 0 12.20 4.3443 31.7446 52.91%

9 James 25 C Limited 10 46 10 8.32 4.3269 31.6174 52.70%

El Presedente is pretty much a speed shoot right? At 9.88 sec I was slow, was dissapointed in my reload (Did not hit the mag release hard enough so when the new mag was comming up I notice the old one still there!!!), but I beat 4 people on points. I have seen this trend in my shooting and I have read this so many times... If I get >95% of my points on a stage, I consider myself to have done a good job, regardless of time.

Just some food for thought,

Ira

[Jake Di Vita]

If you shoot all A's you may be going too slow... Determining the Stage Factor allows you to determine an acceptable sight picture. On a stage where speed is more important a few C's may be acceptable if it saves a fraction of a second.

I'm gonna have to disagree. At the top level points are what wins. Here is a fantastic example from Georgia State this past year. This is 03-06....A Barrel of Fun.

1 Max Michel Jr. 78 GM Open 79 0 5.56 14.2086 80 100.00%

2 Jake Di Vita 244 GM Open 74 0 5.56 13.3094 74.9372 93.67%

3 Brad Balsley 232 M Open 73 0 5.53 13.2007 74.3251 92.91%

4 Chris Patty 253 M Open 75 0 6.36 11.7925 66.3964 83.00%

5 Derek Janowicz 241 M Open 69 0 5.94 11.6162 65.4038 81.75%

I had the exact same time as Max....he won a 14 hit factor stage on points. I think that is pretty amazing and it really shows how important points are...even on a stage where 3 people ran it with more than 13 points per second.

[vincent]

Shooting Minor power factor...it is an complete non-issue. Get the Alphas.

I have a buddy that shoots only Production and I showed him my math for 95% points and then worked it for Minor PF. It worked out to (7) A's to every (1) C. You've got to make sure you do what it takes to get the hits or you will end up way down the list.

[Paladin]

BEWARE TRAP AHEAD!! I fell into this trap sometime ago and began to calc. stage hit factors and using it to determiine my shooting speed..

now I am a weeeee bit wiser.. and I have found out that determining the target challenge tells you the required sight picture and hence the focus type to use.. if you are good at this and you are not wasting time getting on or off the target then your 'speed' will be there..

[TDean]

I am soooo math challenged! I read it over and over and have someone explained to me but still can't figure it out. I know the fomula for hit factor, sure. But it doesn't mean if I can decided before I shoot the stage if I should go for speed of accuracy.

Is there any EASY way to approx. decide which way to go? All I want to know is speed vs accuracy decision. Thanks!!

Generally, a 6 HF requires equal amounts of speed and accuracy. A lower HF of 3-4 means you'll need to be very accurate, while a high 8-10 HF is more forgiving of accuracy.

[lukipsc]

You can shot fast only as you can see your sights or you can call your shots.

[XRe]

I toy with guessing at high HFs for a course, just as a giggle. It can be done - and I'd agree with statements made above that it's something probably better left alone, at least until you're looking at match contention. It takes a great deal of knowledge about your abilities in various situations to get a good idea about what your performance will be on a stage. Focusing on speed or absolute accuracy can really throw a monkey wrench into a performance...

That said - recognizing a stage for what it is can help in determining the best way to shoot the stage, and also in visualization of the stage.

[short_round]

El Presedente

2 Billy 63 B Limited 10 52 10 6.27 6.6986 48.9479 81.58%

3 Ira 18 C Limited 10 57 0 9.88 5.7692 42.1566 70.26%

Just some food for thought,

Ira

Consider the following ... shooter 2 shot 3.61 seconds faster, was 15 points down of shooter 3, but ended up with almost a full hit factor more and 11+% more points for the stage. Of course at the higher levels none of this is acceptable, but in the brush league where the fun boys and fun girls run this is real.

[shred]

I used to work out HF's to the Nth degree. Now I just recognize if they're going to be outlandishly low or high and act accordingly. All other times I just shoot.

[Rikarin]

I had a totally opposit result this weekend. I haven't shot for 3 weeks and I decided to shoot El Prez first and boy oh boy had 1 Mike and lots of Ds

But, my overall placement is so much better than other stages. My time was tad bit slower than top Pruduction shooter ( i went for speed). even score-wise I was bad. This prompt me for the question.

BritainUSA make sense. Since this is no movement stage, even I hosed it, I still placed high.

Rika,

I think BritinUSA is about right. However, consider the following match results from Saturday: (Last names removed to protect the inocent)

El Presedente is pretty much a speed shoot right? At 9.88 sec I was slow, was dissapointed in my reload (Did not hit the mag release hard enough so when the new mag was comming up I notice the old one still there!!!), but I beat 4 people on points. I have seen this trend in my shooting and I have read this so many times... If I get >95% of my points on a stage, I consider myself to have done a good job, regardless of time.

Just some food for thought,

Ira

Also, I do not need lecture on A's as quick as possible or see enough things, right now I perfectly know those principals.

I used to go fo all A's to the point my sight stops completely on each targets. That was a drag. I used to shoot all "control" and took the fun of shooting away from me. ( Did you guys read my post on burnt out? ) Now, I am doing all "abandon" shoting fast as possible my body can move. And funny thing is except for almost consistant Mikes on each stage of course, my overall scores aren't that bad and I am hitting As most of the times.

So, I thought its fun to know which stage I can just hose through and have a lot of fun and which one I should be bit more careful and as XRe said, help me to visualize. When time comes, I will adjust this "control" "abandon" slider to the right place

Edited October 25, 2005 by Rikarin

[XRe]

So, I thought its fun to know which stage I can just hose through and have a lot of fun and which one I should be bit more careful and as XRe said, help me to visualize. When time comes, I will adjust this "control" "abandon" slider to the right place

Others may not agree - I found I had to go through things like you're doing in order to find that "happy place" in the middle. I couldn't get out of the "sight picture stopped dead" thing until I'd really experienced what it felt like to shoot as fast as I could pull the trigger - and learn what I could and couldn't do at that speed. It then took work to meld the two. The realization along the way was as everyone else has said - focus on the sights, and allow them to dictate speed. I fundamentally *knew* that with my brain, but until I'd experienced both extremes, and found the right mix myself, I didn't really know viscerally what it meant.

Anyhow - the stages with close, wide open targets are generally going to be hosefests. Further targets or tighter shots, and courses with lots of long movement and sparse shooting in between, are going to tend towards points. Fixed time is all about points - how many can you get in the allotted time (and assume that a winning score is 100% of the points). That's my rule of thumb - sort of what shred is getting at...

[short_round]

... until I'd experienced both extremes, and found the right mix myself, I didn't really know viscerally what it meant.

Exactly!

"If you meet the Bhudda, kill the Bhudda. ... Live your life just as it is."

[Loves2Shoot]

Can I add a question? What would happen in the long haul if you forget about trying to predetermine hit factors and just shoot for A's as quickly as possible?

This works best for me. Some targets with tiny A zones I might not force the A, when I can pick up some good time shooting on the move, I may let a few points drop, but overall my best strategy in the long haul is to know where each shot went and try to get lots of points.

[AZ38super]

Being a fairly new shooter as well I have been going through the same thing, and the only real way to know is to work it out yourself. Each person is different. I usually know when I pushed the speed to much right away.

Being in AZ now I get to shoot with many of the top shooters like "TGO", Matt B. or Vic P. (Revo) and lots of others on a weekly basis and watch and learn. I push myself to try and keep up.

There are good runs and bad ones but I learn more each time and have fun. I even had my greatest classifier ever thanks to a pointer from a fellow master class shooter. (See my post on Ironsides)

Basicly I push my personal edge on each stage and let my shots be what they be, which isn't always what I pictured as I shot the stage.

[Steve Moneypenny]

IMO there are only 2 times to worry about HF's ... Make up shots and when you want to strategically skip a target or position. All other times shoot alphas and don't muddy up the waters of your mind.

What has been said about taking too much time to get alphas wellll if you are TOO deliberate yes. but that is a Rarity cured by natural speed at some point. That is why we go 100% in practice and then dial it back for match day.

[Clay1]

In Saul Kirsch's new book: Thinking Practical Shooting he talks specifically about figuring out hitfactor for each stage. Personally, I have enough trouble figuring out where to reload and remember where each of the targets are located at this point that doing the match during the 5 minute walk through would be detremental to my success.

His recap of the situation is that when the HF is higher speed is more important and when the HF is lower accuracy is more important. What I take out of that is that if the stage happens to be 12 targets all under 5 yards for me, it is a hoser stage, but beyond that example I shoot for As at this point. Saul's book has a ton of good stuff especially given your post on burnout. Highly recomended. Good luck.

Rick