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training red dot with the front covered?


AverageJoeShooting
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25 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

I do think this is a fallacy that gets perpetuated too much.... That a dot is going to magically make you a "better/faster" shooter.

sort of. I think perhaps for people that suck at iron sights, a dot *will* make them magically better and faster and more accurate. but for people that have practiced alot with iron sights, there is the possibility of being frustrated at first.

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I think its a bit comical the whole "Dots are easy" mantra.  Or my favorite "People use dots because they cannot use irons".  It is more how you make yourself proficient with any aiming system more than the type of aiming system being used.  Using dots comes with a different set of issues that one needs to overcome to be proficient at using them.  

 

The whole "Any one can pick up a dot and instantly shoot better" is also comical.

 

Irons or Dots, you have to put in the work to become proficient in using them.

 

39 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

there is the possibility of being frustrated at first.

 

We have a local Production who shot CO for the season this year.  Hates the dot, is going back to Production.

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Good at iron sights or bad, transitioning to a dot is going to be problematic at first.  Even if you have the slide milled, the dot is going to be higher than the irons were.  So unless you do a weeks worth of daily dry fire to retrain your muscle memory, the dot will not be where you are looking.  I see it all the time.  Draw...find the dot....then shoot.

 

It took me a week or more to go from irons to a frame mounted, Slideride Open gun.  Then, on the few occasions I shot my Limited gun, I had the opposite problem.  The gun came up too low and I hand to adjust.  I'll also note it took a lot longer to stop looking at the dot.  Looking at the front sight becomes instinctive in Limited, and it was a hard habit to break.  Now I can honestly say that I often do not see the dot while shooting.  I must see it subconsciously, because I hit what I'm shooting at.  But I have no conscious recollection of seeing a red dot.

 

When this happens in SCSA I'm having a blazingly fast day (for me).

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Do what you feel you need to do in order to learn or relearn something. Changing your default behavior is difficult and requires dedicated work to accomplish. We all need training wheels to help us along at some point. But eventually those training wheels need to come off if we really want to maximize performance.

 

Let your results or lack there of be the final verification of deploying one solution over another.

 

The common theme that I see is the general lack of people willing to put the work in on their own to figure things out. This comes down to the fact that most people are not willing to put in the work needed to figure things out on their own. Its much easier to sit back and wait for someone else to spoon feed you a solution or hop on whatever the latest band wagon trend there is. I guess that is why the bulk of USPSA shooters settle into the C/B class skill level. Mediocrity for the WIN!!!

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5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

because i've never shot open, and never want to shoot open, and think open guns are loud, fragile and overpriced. OTOH, CO appeals to me since it is based on actual duty/carry equipment. I suspect I'm not the only one with years of iron sight experience and training who is now interested in getting better with a dot.

 

Most of the open shooters I know switched to open before they ever got good with irons. Many switched because they *couldn't* get good with irons (or didn't feel like practicing, lol). OTOH, many of the people switching now are pretty good with irons and have been practicing for a long time with irons, so instead of being instantly faster, there is a bit of a regression at first. I think people are brainstorming and practicing to try to get over that.

 

*laughs in open and limited shooting*

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The heavens opened and the gods smiled on me when I shot my wife’s CO gun at a match 1 year ago (almost to the day).  I couldn’t get the grin of my face, it felt like cheating compared to irons.
 Up to them I was shooting revo irons.  My transition to the dot was seamless and went straight to open.  Fun fun fun.  I simply don’t have the patience for irons and probably  used the front fiber  like a dot?  At least that’s my theory.  
 

I will try revo irons again this weekend (last outdoor match of ‘21) or maybe open minor with my open revo (got an icore match later in the day).  I’m not going through the effort of trying to keep my open 2011 warm enough to run outside again in below freezing temperatures. 

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22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

sort of. I think perhaps for people that suck at iron sights, a dot *will* make them magically better and faster and more accurate. but for people that have practiced alot with iron sights, there is the possibility of being frustrated at first.

This is super accurate for me. I will admit I spent more effort running matches and less time training to shoot abs it caused me to regress skillwise. I went to carry optics for production as a way to help ease some of my stage planning issues. I just found my mental capacity wasn’t there with  all the other stuff I was dealing with. All it did was highlight all the issues I had with index,draw etc. 

 

covering the dot right now for me allows me to isolate parts that i need a lot of work on. The amount of bad habits I picked up is staggering and right now I need to break them into pieces to correct 

Edited by Nathanb
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  • 7 months later...
On 10/21/2020 at 11:36 AM, clw42 said:

 

The goal is to be target focused and not be looking through the window of the red dot to see the sight on the target.  You should be looking to a spot on the target that you want to shoot, the dot shows up at that spot and then you shoot.  If you're looking through the window, then your following the gun around with your eyes.  The gun should be following your eyes.  If you're doing it right, the image you see won't change whether the dot is covered or not.  Another thing to try is dimming it way down (for training purposes, obviously you want to be able to see it on a sunny day outside).  A bright dot attracts your focus back to the dot when it should be on the target.

 


what kind of tape are you guys using?

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14 hours ago, bigpipe said:


what kind of tape are you guys using?

 

I was using electrical tape. Some people use painters tape but I preferred electrical. 

Range Panda also sells 3D printed covers that occlude the dot.  There's someone else making them for the SRO and I believe the Romeo 3 dots now as well.  They're both good.

10 hours ago, donnyglock said:

The kind you can’t see through. Sorry I couldn’t resist. 

 

Hilarious.  Don't you have guns to build?

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3 hours ago, clw42 said:

 

I was using electrical tape. Some people use painters tape but I preferred electrical. 

Range Panda also sells 3D printed covers that occlude the dot.  There's someone else making them for the SRO and I believe the Romeo 3 dots now as well.  They're both good.

 

Hilarious.  Don't you have guns to build?

Lol. Yes sir!! I’ll stick with building guns and leave the comedy to the pros. Back to the grind. 

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6 hours ago, Nathanb said:

Stonebridge gun works is the other cover maker for now 

 

That's the one, thank you!

 

5 hours ago, donnyglock said:

Lol. Yes sir!! I’ll stick with building guns and leave the comedy to the pros. Back to the grind. 

 

We have to stick to our strengths.  Besides we're all better served with more of your guns out in the world!!

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  • 3 months later...
On 11/29/2021 at 11:33 AM, motosapiens said:

 

 

for sure, there is no doubt for me that in certain high glare situations covering the front of the dot helps. One of our pits at nampa faces straight into the sun in the morning. It's very challenging to see much of anything without some way of reducing the glare. making a little sunshade out of tape also works, but doesn't seem to work any *better* than just covering the dot for that stage

 

 

could be wrong, but, doesnt the gun need to remain the same throughout the entire match?

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15 minutes ago, cnote said:

could be wrong, but, doesnt the gun need to remain the same throughout the entire match?

no.

 

Quote

5.1.8A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a firearm during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6.Significantly modifying includes adding or removing items such as flashlights, bipods, telescopes, foregrips, or grip panels, etc.  These may be removed or added prior to the Make Ready command on the first stage of a match, but must remain in that configuration for all other stages of the match.  Scope covers, tape, dust covers and bungee cords are exempt from this requirement.

 

Edited by motosapiens
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Did anyone experience the point of impact shift with occluded dot? Mine shifts to the left about 6 inches at 25yrds. When I remove the cover, it gets back to normal. I  confirmed that numerous times. Can’t really explain it. 
For that reason I dry fire with my dot occluded but I remove the cover in life fire.

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52 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Do you have a cross-dominant eye?

I think I do not have a strong dominant eye. Some tests show that I am right eye dominant, while some - left. Not sure how that would cause the shift though 

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I’m right-handed and left-eye dominant. If I close my right eye and line up the dot with my left eye then my shots typically drifted a little to the right.

 

When I shoot normally, my dominant left-eye sees the target while the dot is aligned naturally with my right-eye. For me, occluded and non-occluded appear the same.

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I've tried the occluded dot thing recently.  I've shot Irons for years and have had a bit of an issue switching to open.  I've ran some drills and occluded or not i was practically the same.  Where i did notice it was in shooting occluded for a practice then removing the tape and shooting like normal.  It really seemed to help me out in picking a spot on the target rather than shooting at brown.  Times decreased a little and hits were the same or slightly better.  It's definetly something i will work into practice more this offseason.

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the main benefit to me of taping over the dot is that it absolutely prevents my right (dominant-ish) eye from focusing on the dot instead of the target. This is helping me stay in target focus and not go back to old iron-sights habits, leading to faster transitions without overswinging, and better shot-calling. I only do it for dryfire except for the one time at a match where we were looking straight into the sun (shooting up from a low port).

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