Competitor (not RO) calling a squib

[broadside72]

I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction. 

 

If the slide off the frame make it "not a firearm" at the safe table, then its not a firearm during the CoF so there is no unsafe gun handling and 5.7.2.1 shouldn't apply

 

Because a low HF with the terrible time is still better than 0.0 HF if the squib doesn't happen near the end of the run

Edited October 22, 2020 by broadside72

[RJH]

On 10/19/2020 at 5:29 PM, ampleworks said:

If you stop yourself, wait for the RO to start talking to you or using improper range commands while trying to figure out whatever is wrong with your gun and then get your reshoot.

 

Hmmmm, you got a rule to back this theory up?

[IVC]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction. 

Too much potential for dangerous activity, so it's best to keep the rule as is. 

 

It's just a matter of time before someone tried to clear a live round that is stuck because of a broken extractor or something similar. Once the barrel is clogged, it's best to eliminate the time component and take care of the situation (RO cannot allow a loaded gun to leave the line). Safety first. 

 

Allowing a reshoot on an actual squib is also not an option - I could have a "special magazine" with a powderless round that I could reload in a pinch to force a squib and get a reshoot. We should just leave the squib rule as-is, it's a good rule

[DirkD]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:31 PM, broadside72 said:

I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction. 

 

If the slide off the frame make it "not a firearm" at the safe table, then its not a firearm during the CoF so there is no unsafe gun handling and 5.7.2.1 shouldn't apply

 

Because a low HF with the terrible time is still better than 0.0 HF if the squib doesn't happen near the end of the run

how are you going to keep from sweeping yourself with the muzzle trying to clear the squib?

A muzzle is still a muzzle, a frame is still a firearm.

Just because you are allowed to do something in a safe area doesn't change what it is during a stage.

[broadside72]

27 minutes ago, DirkD said:

how are you going to keep from sweeping yourself with the muzzle trying to clear the squib?

A muzzle is still a muzzle, a frame is still a firearm.

Just because you are allowed to do something in a safe area doesn't change what it is during a stage.

 

You obviously lack imagination. I'll let you figure it out

[DirkD]

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

You obviously lack imagination. I'll let you figure it out

try it during a stage.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:31 PM, broadside72 said:

I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction. 

 

If the slide off the frame make it "not a firearm" at the safe table, then its not a firearm during the CoF so there is no unsafe gun handling and 5.7.2.1 shouldn't apply

 

Because a low HF with the terrible time is still better than 0.0 HF if the squib doesn't happen near the end of the run

 

If squibs happen to someone so often that this is even under consideration, then maybe the answer is to have a better ammunition making process not a better squib-clearing process.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 10/19/2020 at 6:29 PM, ampleworks said:

If you stop yourself, wait for the RO to start talking to you or using improper range commands while trying to figure out whatever is wrong with your gun and then get your reshoot.

 

LOL..........let me know how that works out for you.

 

But just in case it will go something like this: 5.7.4--->5.7.2.1--->10.5.20

[DirkD]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:31 PM, broadside72 said:

I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction. 

 

If the slide off the frame make it "not a firearm" at the safe table, then its not a firearm during the CoF so there is no unsafe gun handling and 5.7.2.1 shouldn't apply

 

 

maybe it would be a good idea to learn how to load ammo and you won't have to worry about it.

Is adding 120 seconds to your stage time worth wasting everyones time and changing a safety rule so you can get a .5 hit factor worth it?

where in the rule book does it say a slide off a firearm in a safe area is not a firearm?

How does what is allowed in a safe area, change what is allowed in a stage?

[broadside72]

7 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If squibs happen to someone so often that this is even under consideration, then maybe the answer is to have a better ammunition making process not a better squib-clearing process.

If it happens a lot, I agree that its an ammo issue that needs to be resolved. But if finishing a stage, even with a crappy time, is enough to win/place at a major, then why shouldn't someone be able to resolve an issue with a squib if it can be done without muzzling yourself with an assembled firearm?

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, DirkD said:

maybe it would be a good idea to learn how to load ammo and you won't have to worry about it.

Is adding 120 seconds to your stage time worth wasting everyones time and changing a safety rule so you can get a .5 hit factor worth it?

where in the rule book does it say a slide off a firearm in a safe area is not a firearm?

How does what is allowed in a safe area, change what is allowed in a stage?

 
Even factory ammo has the occasional issue. Just like DQ's, its not a matter of if, but when, it happens to you

Anything is better than a zero on a stage, especially if you are trying to maintain overall match position at a major.

The rulebook does not say that is not a firearm but it does not say that it is not either. However Troy taught my RO class and he said, once the gun is disassembled its no longer a firearm so the muzzle/sweeping rules when at a safe table don't apply because its not a gun at that point. Would you have a concern if I had a just a barrel in hand walking around the range at a match, maybe one I just bought from someone or a conversion barrel I keep in my bag, etc?

It doesn't change what is allowed, hence why I was suggesting a change that would allow clearing of a squib in a safe fashion. 

[DirkD]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

If it happens a lot, I agree that its an ammo issue that needs to be resolved. But if finishing a stage, even with a crappy time, is enough to win/place at a major, then why shouldn't someone be able to resolve an issue with a squib if it can be done without muzzling yourself with an assembled firearm?

If you have a squib at any match your stage is done, you are not going to place well even if you can clear a squib, let alone win or place.

1 squib you have shown you have unsafe ammo, how many more squibs are in there??

Unsafe Ammo/Gun

5.1.6, 5.5.5, 5.7.7

If multiple squibs and the shooter keeps using it.

10.5.15.1 Ammunition declared unsafe by a Range Official due to multiple squibs, shall not subject the competitor to disqualification, unless the competitor continues to use said ammunition after a Range Official has declared it unsafe.

[rishii]

The competitor is responsible for their equipment 

if you gun breaks during a stage, you don’t get a mulligan to fix it,

record the time, score as shot.

if you get a squib, the RO should try to stop you for safety, but again, it’s your ammo, it’s your responsibility to make sure you brought good ammo.

if I suspect I have a squib that the RO didn’t catch, I’d stop, inform the RO and check, if it’s a block bore, it’s scored as shot, if not times running

[SGT_Schultz]

4 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 if it can be done without muzzling yourself with an assembled firearm?

 

LOL

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, DirkD said:

If you have a squib at any match your stage is done, you are not going to place well even if you can clear a squib, let alone win or place.

1 squib you have shown you have unsafe ammo, how many more squibs are in there??

Unsafe Ammo/Gun

5.1.6, 5.5.5, 5.7.7

If multiple squibs and the shooter keeps using it.

10.5.15.1 Ammunition declared unsafe by a Range Official due to multiple squibs, shall not subject the competitor to disqualification, unless the competitor continues to use said ammunition after a Range Official has declared it unsafe.

 

This

 

And this

Quote

5.7.4 In the event that a firearm malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of fire (excluding any un-attempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any un-attempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

4 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 
Even factory ammo has the occasional issue. Just like DQ's, its not a matter of if, but when, it happens to you

Anything is better than a zero on a stage, especially if you are trying to maintain overall match position at a major.

The rulebook does not say that is not a firearm but it does not say that it is not either. However Troy taught my RO class and he said, once the gun is disassembled its no longer a firearm so the muzzle/sweeping rules when at a safe table don't apply because its not a gun at that point. Would you have a concern if I had a just a barrel in hand walking around the range at a match, maybe one I just bought from someone or a conversion barrel I keep in my bag, etc?

It doesn't change what is allowed, hence why I was suggesting a change that would allow clearing of a squib in a safe fashion. 

 

You're trolling us, right?

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[broadside72]

Not trolling, but it is fun thinking out of the box.
 

You guys all lack problem solving skills. 

And apparently I need to stop letting people shoot matches when the have a single squib because apparently that means you have unsafe ammo. And when you come back to the next match, I shouldn't let you shoot then unless you can prove to me that you have fresh ammo? I never said that squib after squib after squib is not unsafe ammo and should not be dealt with. I didn't raise that rule completely out of context of this thread. 
 

Edited November 21, 2020 by broadside72

[driver8M3]

7 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 It doesn't change what is allowed, hence why I was suggesting a change that would allow clearing of a squib in a safe fashion. 

I don't think you've thought this through completely. What do you want ROs to do when they recognize a squib but the shooter doesn't?

 

The current squib rules are fine. I seriously doubt NROI would ever consider allowing squibs to be cleared on the clock. 

[revoman]

On 11/20/2020 at 11:37 AM, broadside72 said:

 
 Just like DQ's, its not a matter of if, but when, it happens to you

Untrue statement and I wish people would stop using this. It is truly lame.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, revoman said:

Untrue statement and I wish people would stop using this. It is truly lame.

Agreed. It is not a fact that everybody will eventually DQ. Not even close

[broadside72]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

Agreed. It is not a fact that everybody will eventually DQ. Not even close

 

10 hours ago, revoman said:

Untrue statement and I wish people would stop using this. It is truly lame.

Fine, ignore the colloquialism as a metaphor for squibs not being a super rare thing. They happen. They can happen to anyone and can happen with factory new, factory reman and your own reloads. That is all I was getting at. 

[Sarge]

10 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

Fine, ignore the colloquialism as a metaphor for squibs not being a super rare thing. They happen. They can happen to anyone and can happen with factory new, factory reman and your own reloads. That is all I was getting at. 

Agreed. 

[revoman]

12 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

Fine, ignore the colloquialism as a metaphor for squibs not being a super rare thing. They happen. They can happen to anyone and can happen with factory new, factory reman and your own reloads. That is all I was getting at. 

I would agree with that.

[Styro]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:48 PM, matteekay said:

Hey all, 

 

This came up at a biggish match over the weekend. We had a competitor squib during a course of fire and stop himself. The rules are really clear about what happens here when the RO is the one who stops the competitor - if the squib is legitimate, the course is scored as shot (5.7.7.1). If the RO was mistaken, the competitor gets a reshoot (5.7.7.2). However, there doesn't seem to be a provision for the competitor calling the squib themselves as 5.7.7 is prefaced with "In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to... (squib etc)".

 

If the shooter calls the stop and not the RO, is it an immediate "scored as shot" with no chance of a reshoot? That's the only interpretation I can glean from the rules, but it seems odd to put the onus on them to decide if the possibility of bulging their barrel outweighs likely zeroing a COF. 

If the competitor calls it himself, then it's no different than a gun malfunction during a course of fire. 

[matteekay]

And with that... we've looped ALL the way back around to the start of the topic, lol.

 

The internet, folks!