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Sorting Brass, headstamp ID & OAL


ML123

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I am new to reloading and have loaded 800rds 9mm so far.  I fired the first 300rds without issue but was getting a huge spread on my OAL and couldn't figure out why so I started sorting my brass just so I could run everything the same.  I loaded four so far FC, Blazer, S&B and *USA*.  

 

FC and Blazer seemed to be spot on with what I set the seating die up for 1.080, FC was right on Blazer tad longer in 1.082-4 range.  I loaded 300rds of these two and all of them case gauged in the Hundo nicely too.

 

S&B and *USA* were both way to long at 1.090-1.094 with all of these rounds failing the plunk test in my CZ chamber.  I loaded about 50 rds of these two cases and the results were all the same and very consistent.  I am going to try Winchester cases today.

 

I also pulled all the WMA and WCC Winchester brass as I believe it is crimped? 

 

Does anyone know what FC 19 or FC 18 cases are I did a search and not finding anything?  I pulled them suspecting military brass but they don't look like they have crimp and are definitely different than the std FC case?  I found the thread on FC NT but these are definitely FC 19 or a few FC 18.

 

Does anyone know who makes *USA* brass I found a thread talking about it and it was determined its not starline?

 

I also found a few lists of headstamps to avoid is there a good source for what not to use?  I know to throw out Ammoland and PMC any others?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ML123 said:

I am new to reloading and have loaded 800rds 9mm so far.  I fired the first 300rds without issue but was getting a huge spread on my OAL and couldn't figure out why so I started sorting my brass just so I could run everything the same.  I loaded four so far FC, Blazer, S&B and *USA*.  

 

FC and Blazer seemed to be spot on with what I set the seating die up for 1.080, FC was right on Blazer tad longer in 1.082-4 range.  I loaded 300rds of these two and all of them case gauged in the Hundo nicely too.

 

S&B and *USA* were both way to long at 1.090-1.094 with all of these rounds failing the plunk test in my CZ chamber.  I loaded about 50 rds of these two cases and the results were all the same and very consistent.  I am going to try Winchester cases today.

 

I also pulled all the WMA and WCC Winchester brass as I believe it is crimped? 

 

Does anyone know what FC 19 or FC 18 cases are I did a search and not finding anything?  I pulled them suspecting military brass but they don't look like they have crimp and are definitely different than the std FC case?  I found the thread on FC NT but these are definitely FC 19 or a few FC 18.

 

Does anyone know who makes *USA* brass I found a thread talking about it and it was determined its not starline?

 

I also found a few lists of headstamps to avoid is there a good source for what not to use?  I know to throw out Ammoland and PMC any others?

 

 

I load all 9mm brass with the exception of the stepped stuff and Extreme without issue.  Many threads on 9mm stepped brass here.  Should find it easily.  Extreme is hit and miss on primer pockets retaining the primer.

 

FC18 and 19 is most likely military.  Remove the crimp and load it.  Same for all military brass.

 

This is how I have rolled my own for many years and only what I do.  Others will come along and comment on your OAL and FC brass question.  Will also give a list of good and bad brass and also say what I have said about loading all brass.

 

Once you read all the opinions, you can form your own and move forward.  Remember, use many sources to learn as well as your new experiences.  This is the fun part of reloading.

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

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some questions that will help others with your issues

What press are you using?

What dies?
Which bullet and weight.

 

 

If you are running a progressive press, having all stations filled is essential to getting more consistent OALs.

The Lee Loadmaster is known for having the die head move around a bit and cause greater variation in OAL. There’s some after market “fixes” for that.

 

I believe many, including myself, load most of the head stamps without any particular difficulty you’ve posted. CBC is the most finicky and recently the crimps on Winchester +P and some military brass have been giving me fits even with a swage station.

 

Reloading is a process and hobby in itself, so keep at it and enjoy.  Hey, just look at all the threads and YouTube videos where people proudly show off the loading benches and techniques. Cool looking stuff. 
 

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4 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

some questions that will help others with your issues

What press are you using?

What dies?
Which bullet and weight.

 

 

If you are running a progressive press, having all stations filled is essential to getting more consistent OALs.

The Lee Loadmaster is known for having the die head move around a bit and cause greater variation in OAL. There’s some after market “fixes” for that.

 

I believe many, including myself, load most of the head stamps without any particular difficulty you’ve posted. CBC is the most finicky and recently the crimps on Winchester +P and some military brass have been giving me fits even with a swage station.

 

Reloading is a process and hobby in itself, so keep at it and enjoy.  Hey, just look at all the threads and YouTube videos where people proudly show off the loading benches and techniques. Cool looking stuff. 
 

 

Yes I am having fun with it and learning a lot.  I am a garage/tool geek to begin with so this is right up my alley!  I just got into 3 gun this year and reloading kind of out of necessity. 

 

I have a Dillon XL750

I am using Lee dies and just switched to the Dillon seating die.

I am loading BBI 147g coated bullets with 3.2g Titegroup and CCI No.500 primers. 

 

My CZ S2 chamber will plunk up to about 1.088 in length and I like to be at 1.085 or less.  I have the seating die set at 1.080 to begin with if I reset it to 1.075 and some of the S&B cases are giving me 1.094 now they still might not plunk.  If I go to 1.070 I will have a few FC cases that will be in the 1.068 range.

 

I don't have a chrono and not sure how much of a difference .010 in OAL makes and if it is anything to even worry about in loading minor rounds?

 

 

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57 minutes ago, ML123 said:

I am new to reloading and have loaded 800rds 9mm so far.  I fired the first 300rds without issue but was getting a huge spread on my OAL and couldn't figure out why so I started sorting my brass just so I could run everything the same.  I loaded four so far FC, Blazer, S&B and *USA*.  

 

FC and Blazer seemed to be spot on with what I set the seating die up for 1.080, FC was right on Blazer tad longer in 1.082-4 range.  I loaded 300rds of these two and all of them case gauged in the Hundo nicely too.

 

S&B and *USA* were both way to long at 1.090-1.094 with all of these rounds failing the plunk test in my CZ chamber.  I loaded about 50 rds of these two cases and the results were all the same and very consistent.  I am going to try Winchester cases today.

 

I also pulled all the WMA and WCC Winchester brass as I believe it is crimped? 

 

Does anyone know what FC 19 or FC 18 cases are I did a search and not finding anything?  I pulled them suspecting military brass but they don't look like they have crimp and are definitely different than the std FC case?  I found the thread on FC NT but these are definitely FC 19 or a few FC 18.

 

Does anyone know who makes *USA* brass I found a thread talking about it and it was determined its not starline?

 

I also found a few lists of headstamps to avoid is there a good source for what not to use?  I know to throw out Ammoland and PMC any others?

 

 

FC 18 and 19 are crimped, and the primer pockets are slightly undersized. They will need to be swaged. I have 1000 rounds of FC 19 that I got just in case (ammo shortages) 

Edited by Bobkoh
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ML123,

     This may help. Check case length and trim all to be as close as possible, I can't get closer than +/- .0015, it takes practice. I sort cases, some people don't and never have problems. I use a very old single station press, most here use progressive presses. Different presses and different dies mean different issues, it can be an obsession if you let it. Wide variation in COAL is the fly in the ointment, look at case length for a start. If COAL variation is no more that .015 I cant see it in my SD numbers from the chronograph, any thing greater would be a concern. My fear with COAL variation is fail to feed or to go into battery, I load for a lot of different pistols. Seat dies are a challenge, try something else if you don't find a solution. Some cast and coated bullets have driven me stark raving mad, FMJ's are the best, JHP's next. Good Luck

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Usa brass is winchester.

Why are you calling out pmc?

Search feature upper right hand side . Use it read .

This is probably the most discussed topic.

Some one mentioned triming cases . As a bullseye high master I haven't ever trimmed a pistol case.

A lot of the veration is it the bullets.

Finley load to a average length that is not to long ./Not to short.

Edited by AHI
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Trimming pistol brass? No way. I’m pretty anal about producing good quality, accurate and consistent 9mm ammo. These are what work for me:

sort by headstamp

lube cases

keep the press moving at normal loading speed

make sure primers are at or below flush

 

SORT- oal variations are more a result of case wall thickness and most brands are different. The harder it is to seat a bullet the more prone to be shorter. Pushing harder makes things flex more, torque more etc etc.

LUBE- again, the less force needed to seat the bullets the more uniform the oal.

KEEP MOVING- along with keeping shell plate full it is also important to keep a steady rhythm. With a progressive press the worst thing you can do is be timid with the handle, measure the oal, pull handle, repeat etc. when I begin a loading session I first verify powder drop , oal is close, then pull the handle a few times and drop those in a practice bucket. Then start running the press at a good steady pace for about 5 rounds and measure. If your length is good load the rest of the 100 and stop the press. Randomly measure several until a good solid average aol can be determined.

PRIMERS- if you put calipers on the primer when measuring aol they must be at least perfectly flush or none of the above will matter

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3 hours ago, ML123 said:

My CZ S2 chamber will plunk up to about 1.088 in length and I like to be at 1.085 or less.  I have the seating die set at 1.080 to begin with if I reset it to 1.075 and some of the S&B cases are giving me 1.094 now they still might not plunk.  If I go to 1.070 I will have a few FC cases that will be in the 1.068 range.

 

 

I used to have a 650, I now load all my 9MM, 40SW, 45acp on a 1050, use a 550, and a Lee single stage for rifle and the occasional odd calibers.

 

The 650 needs to have all the stations with loads in them.

I would recommend using the MBF powder funnel or the other brand over the stock Dillon. It definitely helps with case expansion and bullet alignment. This will help with OAL consistency.

 

The 147s have to be seated deeper and the brass which has a shorter internal taper (gets thicker faster) will make it a bit more difficult to both align and allow the bullet to go straight into the case. To be honest with the CZ S2 case (I've loaded 10s of thousands for my son's S2) and the 147 BBI at 1.08 some head stamps will probably be more difficult than others. 

 

Truthfully I found the FN profile (not truncated) bullets will load longer, 1.14, for the CZ and sure helps with the issues you're facing. But in these slim days we use what we have and can acquire.

 

As far as dies go, this is what works best for my set up:

Dillon sizing

MBF Powder funnel

Hornady Seating die (it holds the bullet straighter as it is being seated.

Dillon traper crimp die makes the smoothest crimp without denting the bullet.

 

On the 750 make sure your down stroke/seating... is as far as it will go.

That's all I can add and I'm sure many will have some other tips for you.

 

BTW you won't really notice the small OAL differences while you are shooting.

 

Search the forum, many have been through this before and keep at it until you have as close to perfection as possible.

👍

Edited by HesedTech
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6 hours ago, ML123 said:

 

Yes I am having fun with it and learning a lot.  I am a garage/tool geek to begin with so this is right up my alley!  I just got into 3 gun this year and reloading kind of out of necessity. 

 

I have a Dillon XL750

I am using Lee dies and just switched to the Dillon seating die.

I am loading BBI 147g coated bullets with 3.2g Titegroup and CCI No.500 primers. 

 

My CZ S2 chamber will plunk up to about 1.088 in length and I like to be at 1.085 or less.  I have the seating die set at 1.080 to begin with if I reset it to 1.075 and some of the S&B cases are giving me 1.094 now they still might not plunk.  If I go to 1.070 I will have a few FC cases that will be in the 1.068 range.

 

I don't have a chrono and not sure how much of a difference .010 in OAL makes and if it is anything to even worry about in loading minor rounds?

 

 

I guess I’m lucky with my shadow 2’s generous chamber. I can load up to 1.135” OAL with PD 124 Gr JHPs but load them to 1.120-1.125”. I also sort my brass by headstamp and use S&B exclusively since they’re once fired because nobody wants to load them to to the tight primer pockets.
 

I process and size them on my 1100 using FW Arms decapper, FW Arns Swage foot dies and Lee Udie. Then I load them with an MBF powder funnel, Redding competition seating and Redding taper crimp die. I have no problems with setback.

 

By the way, what bullets are you loading?

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Trimming pistol brass!?  First I've heard of someone doing that... I can't imagine any real gains in performance!?  But if you've got that kind of time... 😉

 

OP - It's not the brass... Listen to the others here, it's operator, press or die related. ;)

 

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9 hours ago, AHI said:

Usa brass is winchester.

Why are you calling out pmc?

Search feature upper right hand side . Use it read .

This is probably the most discussed topic.

Some one mentioned triming cases . As a bullseye high master I haven't ever trimmed a pistol case.

A lot of the veration is it the bullets.

Finley load to a average length that is not to long ./Not to short.

Thanks I could not find that the *USA* brass was Winchester even with search engine searches I did find a recent topic on it in 2019 but no one identified where they came from 

 

I use the search extensively.  I have many hobbies and have been participating on internet forums since the mid 90s so I try to figure out the answer first.  Some times when you are new you don't always know what to ask in the search to begin with.

 

I did measure a bunch of bullets which are BBI and seem popular on here.  They all measure really close and dont seem to have a lot of variance.  I have Mitotoyo calipers which I have had for at least 20 years.

 

That seems like compromising with as much variation as I am getting.  Plus I dont think .010 in either direction is acceptable.  But why dont I have that kind of variation when using only one case like FC or Blazer?


Thanks for the feedback.

 

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8 hours ago, Sarge said:

Trimming pistol brass? No way. I’m pretty anal about producing good quality, accurate and consistent 9mm ammo. These are what work for me:

sort by headstamp

lube cases

keep the press moving at normal loading speed

make sure primers are at or below flush

 

SORT- oal variations are more a result of case wall thickness and most brands are different. The harder it is to seat a bullet the more prone to be shorter. Pushing harder makes things flex more, torque more etc etc.

LUBE- again, the less force needed to seat the bullets the more uniform the oal.

KEEP MOVING- along with keeping shell plate full it is also important to keep a steady rhythm. With a progressive press the worst thing you can do is be timid with the handle, measure the oal, pull handle, repeat etc. when I begin a loading session I first verify powder drop , oal is close, then pull the handle a few times and drop those in a practice bucket. Then start running the press at a good steady pace for about 5 rounds and measure. If your length is good load the rest of the 100 and stop the press. Randomly measure several until a good solid average aol can be determined.

PRIMERS- if you put calipers on the primer when measuring aol they must be at least perfectly flush or none of the above will matter

Thanks Sarge, your advise is always solid and I have read a bunch of it while searching.  I would like to know where that definitive list of headstamps is on this site that you have referred to on older posts I have read. I looked and can not seem to find a good one and there seems to be a lot of opinions.  Like PMC who AHI seems to like but then I read 2-3 posts in my searches that complain about them blowing up?

 

SORT- I agree and will be sorting or at the very least decapping on the APP press I bought to do rifle brass.  In my short experience in loading, I have loaded a .380 case, bent a LEE decapping pin piercing a 22lr case inside a 9mm case and have crush 3 precious primers on crimped case and I am tired of resetting the decapping pin all in 500 rds.

 

I have not tried Lubing the cases.  I do have a can of One Shot I planned to use for rifle brass.  I think I am going to run a few test rounds with S&B with and without lube and see what happens.

 

Moving- good advice and some I have been trying to follow.  I run a few test rounds then run 20-50 and get an avg.  Then run will run out the rest of the brass I loaded.

 

I am case gauging 100rds at a time in a Hundo and checking all the primers.  Interestingly enough the FC cases not only had the tightest OAL measure they really looked good in the Hundo. My OCD goes nuts looking at that thing with some sticking up more than others which is much worse with mixed brass.

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8 hours ago, HesedTech said:

 

I used to have a 650, I now load all my 9MM, 40SW, 45acp on a 1050, use a 550, and a Lee single stage for rifle and the occasional odd calibers.

 

The 650 needs to have all the stations with loads in them.

I would recommend using the MBF powder funnel or the other brand over the stock Dillon. It definitely helps with case expansion and bullet alignment. This will help with OAL consistency.

 

The 147s have to be seated deeper and the brass which has a shorter internal taper (gets thicker faster) will make it a bit more difficult to both align and allow the bullet to go straight into the case. To be honest with the CZ S2 case (I've loaded 10s of thousands for my son's S2) and the 147 BBI at 1.08 some head stamps will probably be more difficult than others. 

 

Truthfully I found the FN profile (not truncated) bullets will load longer, 1.14, for the CZ and sure helps with the issues you're facing. But in these slim days we use what we have and can acquire.

 

As far as dies go, this is what works best for my set up:

Dillon sizing

MBF Powder funnel

Hornady Seating die (it holds the bullet straighter as it is being seated.

Dillon traper crimp die makes the smoothest crimp without denting the bullet.

 

On the 750 make sure your down stroke/seating... is as far as it will go.

That's all I can add and I'm sure many will have some other tips for you.

 

BTW you won't really notice the small OAL differences while you are shooting.

 

Search the forum, many have been through this before and keep at it until you have as close to perfection as possible.

👍

I have a MBF powder funnel on its way.  I have had a case in the sizing die when tightening the seating die but not in the crimp or powder funnel.  When it gets here I will tear it all apart and start over again......lol

 

I am going to keep sorting and loading different brass to get a range of what is to be expected.  I also want to try case lube on those S&B cases and see if it makes a difference in OAL.

 

Thanks for the advice

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11 hours ago, DryHeat said:

ML123,

     This may help. Check case length and trim all to be as close as possible, I can't get closer than +/- .0015, it takes practice. I sort cases, some people don't and never have problems. I use a very old single station press, most here use progressive presses. Different presses and different dies mean different issues, it can be an obsession if you let it. Wide variation in COAL is the fly in the ointment, look at case length for a start. If COAL variation is no more that .015 I cant see it in my SD numbers from the chronograph, any thing greater would be a concern. My fear with COAL variation is fail to feed or to go into battery, I load for a lot of different pistols. Seat dies are a challenge, try something else if you don't find a solution. Some cast and coated bullets have driven me stark raving mad, FMJ's are the best, JHP's next. Good Luck

Thanks I am going to measure a few and see what the differences are.

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ML123,

     A difference of several thousands effects the expanding and belling operation, a lot. I have seen a difference in the bell or flare on the case alter the way the bullet seats. Some seat dies, specially if they seat and crimp are negatively effected. I seat and crimp in  separate steps, length changes cause a change in the dimension of the bell. My Redding micro adj. seating die will not tolerate much of a difference at all. I see a lot of case length variation because I resize the case from the base up in a separate operation. This gets rid of the ugly bulge at the base of the case, "Glock Bulge", as it is called. I use a Magma Engineering Case Mater Jr, it works very well. I have been "Bit in the Ass" by case length more than once. Four decades ago, pre "Glock Bulge", I never trimmed, there was no need. I have measured before and after and found as much as .009 change in case length, then we would not go into battery. As others have mentioned here, most of the variation is in the cast and coated bullets, some are a real disappointment. These commenters know progressive press problems, my friends use them and I hear stories just like the commenters here. With my singles station operation, this very same problem was variation in components, cases and bullets. Good luck 

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1 hour ago, ML123 said:

But why dont I have that kind of variation when using only one case like FC or Blazer?

FC cases  are probly the thinnest brass out their. very soft also .so when seating bullets very short like you are doing.

your not into the internal taper as much as other brands.

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Thanks guys all solid advice and I appreciate taking the time to respond.

 

The thin cases makes a lot of sense now the S&B cases are definitely heavier than the FC or Blazer.

 

I have the MBF powder funnel on the way and also think that is going to really help.  Thanks Dryheat that Redding die may be in my future and the more I get into this I am thinking prepping 9mm brass on the Lee APP press might not be a bad idea.  I always wondered why so many people liked to do brass prep for 9mm separate with progressive presses.

 

I am going to set up the press with the MBF powder funnel run cases in all stations to set the dies and set the seating die up with a S&B case.  If the FC and Blazer are thinner cases I am thinking they should seat the same or close to the heavier wall cases, if that's the case lol!

 

I have more S&B cases in this batch of mixed brass and would like to use them.  I haven't had an issue loading primers in them but the press does run noticeably smoother with the FC or Blazer cases.

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The S&B has tighter primer pockets compared to FC, Blazer or Winchester (excluding WCC and WMA). Hence I Swage and load them on my RL1100. 
 

Other than that, no problems and I have a bunch load of once fired S&B cases because nobody reloads them where I shoot at.

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ML123,
What are you using your ammo for? Most here are action shooters vs bullseye, so none of your variances matter much, as long as your ammo runs reliably.

After 20+ years shooting Berry’s plated bullets loaded on a Dillon 550 with no problems, I have just switched to coated and have hit some roadblocks. I must have gotten lucky way back when I chose 1.139 for my OAL because I never plunked tested, and it works fine in everything. It must be the long slim profile. My measured rounds with mixed brass ranged from 1.134-1.142 but they “averaged” 1.139 so that’s what I call them.

Now, with Blue, Precision, and Black Bullets I’ve found I need to load much, much shorter to get them to cycle, and I’ve finally decided I need to plunk test to ensure reliability. It turns out my Ruger PC Carbine is my shortest chamber, so I use that as my baseline.

Currently I’m working with the Precision 125gr RN bullets, and I have to seat them at 1.057” to get them to plunk reliably. For my 9mm, I use mixed range brass exclusively. I’ll measure about 50 out of a reliable batch of 200 or so and average the OAL. It ranged from 1.050 - 1.060 with most in the 1.056 - 1.058 range, so I call them 1.057”. Heck, I may even label them 1.05x” because I don’t care about the variance, as long as they all cycle.

I also discovered that the Lee FCD I was using for years didn’t seem to work as well with coated Bullets, so I switched to Dillon dies a couple days ago. We’ll see how that works out.

I don’t really care for all this experimentation, but this bullet shortage had me placing orders with multiple mfgs so as different brands trickle in I’ll have to figure out what needs to be done to get them to work reliably.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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23 hours ago, Cuz said:

ML123,
What are you using your ammo for? Most here are action shooters vs bullseye, so none of your variances matter much, as long as your ammo runs reliably.

After 20+ years shooting Berry’s plated bullets loaded on a Dillon 550 with no problems, I have just switched to coated and have hit some roadblocks. I must have gotten lucky way back when I chose 1.139 for my OAL because I never plunked tested, and it works fine in everything. It must be the long slim profile. My measured rounds with mixed brass ranged from 1.134-1.142 but they “averaged” 1.139 so that’s what I call them.

Now, with Blue, Precision, and Black Bullets I’ve found I need to load much, much shorter to get them to cycle, and I’ve finally decided I need to plunk test to ensure reliability. It turns out my Ruger PC Carbine is my shortest chamber, so I use that as my baseline.

Currently I’m working with the Precision 125gr RN bullets, and I have to seat them at 1.057” to get them to plunk reliably. For my 9mm, I use mixed range brass exclusively. I’ll measure about 50 out of a reliable batch of 200 or so and average the OAL. It ranged from 1.050 - 1.060 with most in the 1.056 - 1.058 range, so I call them 1.057”. Heck, I may even label them 1.05x” because I don’t care about the variance, as long as they all cycle.

I also discovered that the Lee FCD I was using for years didn’t seem to work as well with coated Bullets, so I switched to Dillon dies a couple days ago. We’ll see how that works out.

I don’t really care for all this experimentation, but this bullet shortage had me placing orders with multiple mfgs so as different brands trickle in I’ll have to figure out what needs to be done to get them to work reliably.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I am using the rounds for steel plate and 3 gun matches and possibly USPSA CO class.

 

I am using BBI 147g coated bullets.   I am also looking at the avg and with mixed brass that avg is well over .010 and close to .020 which has me chasing a bunch of stuff to figure out why such a large variation.  I seem to be getting closer to .010 the more I keep tweaking stuff.  I am waiting on MBF powder funnel and I am going to redo everything again and use S&B brass to set up the dies.  Those cases seem pretty hardy compared to other brands and they are giving me the longest OAL.

 

LMK how the Dillon crimp die works over the Lee FCD which is what I am using.  BBI also has info on their site about using the Lee FCD and setting it up to work with their coated bullets.

 

I have a Ruger PC9 and havent checked that chamber yet just my CZ's and Glocks thanks for the heads up.

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Be aware that the Lee FCD will swage down your bullet to .355 if you’re loading anything larger than that ie .356 or larger diameter bullets.

 

I use an FCD when loading 124 Gr JHP from PD but switch to a Dillon taper crimp die when using BB 125 Gr bullets since they’re .356 in diameter.

Edited by George16
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10 minutes ago, ML123 said:

The BBI 147g bullets I have are .356?  When you saw swage down the bucket meaning the crimp will be to tight? 

Yup. It’ll resize it to .355.

 

Should be “bullet” instead of bucket. Stupid autocorrect 😠.

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