A7 DQ with Video

[Silver_Surfer]

On 10/1/2020 at 6:33 AM, racerba said:

def wallet was heavy enough to bump the gun up...you can see that the gun was not completely out...but with with the movement...it equals the perfect storm.  Stage requirements are not "dumb"...this was just a bad situation that nobody could have ever predicted.  hard to say if holster is as tight as it could have been from the video.  i just check my RHT - it clicks and holds well:

 

I checked mine also. Mine can be adjusted to hold my gun as yours does. It's more of a friction than click retention holster. 

[Malarky112]

I found out today (and saw the video) that another shooter was victim of the same issue, almost the exact same spot, metal CZ with a RHT holster.  
I also had emailed the MD with my polite feedback of the stage, she said that the strong hand was handed in an attempt to keep people from sweeping themselves while placing the ballot in the bucket, but obviously that had its own issues and they would avoid it next year.

I also saw that when Max Michel shot it he drew, switched the gun to his weak hand, did the ballot thing, then switched the gun back to strong hand.  HIs many years of experience obviously alerted him to the issue and he worked around it.  Something I won't forget thats for sure.

[MHicks]

Wow! That's interesting the work around of drawing and transferring the gun. Then you can move without worry of retention. I wonder if other shooters came up with that too or if others in Max's squad followed suit.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Malarky112 said:

I found out today (and saw the video) that another shooter was victim of the same issue, almost the exact same spot, metal CZ with a RHT holster.  
I also had emailed the MD with my polite feedback of the stage, she said that the strong hand was handed in an attempt to keep people from sweeping themselves while placing the ballot in the bucket, but obviously that had its own issues and they would avoid it next year.

I also saw that when Max Michel shot it he drew, switched the gun to his weak hand, did the ballot thing, then switched the gun back to strong hand.  HIs many years of experience obviously alerted him to the issue and he worked around it.  Something I won't forget thats for sure.

Or he simply saw what happened to other shooters?

[motosapiens]

Not sure what I would do, but with my normal gear (race holster and a heavy-ass limited gun), I certainly wouldn't run around without my hand on the gun, even if the holster was locked. Unfortunate situation, especially to happen at a big match.

[MemphisMechanic]

18 hours ago, Malarky112 said:

I also saw that when Max Michel shot it he drew, switched the gun to his weak hand, did the ballot thing, then switched the gun back to strong hand.  HIs many years of experience obviously alerted him to the issue and he worked around it.  Something I won't forget thats for sure.

He also likely knows that you won’t run as agressively unless the gun has been drawn or your stronghand is pinning it into the holster. We’ve all figured that one out when headed downrange to paste a missed target at the last second, etc.

 

This is why I find the GX Products cam-lock holster concept really appealing, looking forward to handling one in person sometime to see how stoutly they actually lock.

[Hdiamond]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

He also likely knows that you won’t run as agressively unless the gun has been drawn or your stronghand is pinning it into the holster. We’ve all figured that one out when headed downrange to paste a missed target at the last second, etc.

 

This is why I find the GX Products cam-lock holster concept really appealing, looking forward to handling one in person sometime to see how stoutly they actually lock.

so I don’t have a GX, but got what looks to be an identical lock lever and added it to my RHT holsters. It does a pretty good job. But I would treat it more as a safety device for when you’re NOT on the clock. Disengaging and drawing is kludgy when you have a timer going. And you probably aren’t gonna draw successfully with it engaged

 

also for what it’s worth, I also tried a cheap bike seat clamp and had similar results. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@Hdiamond yeah I wandered into more of a line of thinking of “It would be nice to have the gun clamped solid while pasting, scoring, bending over to set steel, and for porta-potty trips.” 
 

I didn’t really clarify that being the reason I wanted it. I certainly would have drawn the gun and transferred it to the weakhand in this situation.

[waktasz]

I use the big brass knobs on my RHT holster because I can really crank them down in the event of a stage like this. 

[llamasabound]

Hey, I shot that on Thursday. I got to the stage (big heavy CZ in an RHT), looked at the RO, and said, "when I grab that ballot off of the post, my gun is going flying." It was the walk through, so I ran it full speed. I grabbed the ballot of the post and my pistol went flying, deep into the sand. RO cleared the gun, I called for the RM and arranged to swap pistols to my backup gun. 

 

When I got back from switching guns I was up. I ran the stage from the start box with my left hand crossing my body holding the gun in the holster. My time was about 1.25 seconds behind Max Michel, but I think most of that was during the shooting, not the getting to the area. 

 

Incidentally, my ballot bounced out of the box, giving me a procedural on the day. I hadn't shot chrono yet, so they had to run my sandy gun too. First shot (barrel full of sand) was 50fps off the pace, but surprisingly it still worked. I had to completely strip the gun to get the sand out of some nooks and crannies.

 

Rough luck, but I've had both my RHTs dump CZs on walk through. If you dryfire a lot, its pretty much guaranteed to happen. If I suspect it might, I do it during the walk through. (Full speed, sudden direction changes, etc). 

[Malarky112]

42 minutes ago, llamasabound said:

Hey, I shot that on Thursday. I got to the stage (big heavy CZ in an RHT), looked at the RO, and said, "when I grab that ballot off of the post, my gun is going flying." It was the walk through, so I ran it full speed. I grabbed the ballot of the post and my pistol went flying, deep into the sand. RO cleared the gun, I called for the RM and arranged to swap pistols to my backup gun. 

 

When I got back from switching guns I was up. I ran the stage from the start box with my left hand crossing my body holding the gun in the holster. My time was about 1.25 seconds behind Max Michel, but I think most of that was during the shooting, not the getting to the area. 

 

Incidentally, my ballot bounced out of the box, giving me a procedural on the day. I hadn't shot chrono yet, so they had to run my sandy gun too. First shot (barrel full of sand) was 50fps off the pace, but surprisingly it still worked. I had to completely strip the gun to get the sand out of some nooks and crannies.

 

Rough luck, but I've had both my RHTs dump CZs on walk through. If you dryfire a lot, its pretty much guaranteed to happen. If I suspect it might, I do it during the walk through. (Full speed, sudden direction changes, etc). 

Wow, lesson learned on my part.  I've got less than a year with the CZ and CO.  I shot my Glock in production last year.  
I didn't even realize they can give procedurals for a non-shooting action like that.  It was pretty silly to put it politely.

 

[Joe4d]

kinda silly, and IMO unsafe gun handling to show up at a match with gear you already know will fail.  Big difference between the opps issue of learning the hard way, vs knowing ahead of time and doing it anyways.
Unfortunately it seems intentionally tossing a gun "IE causing it to fall" is ok.. Kinda ridiculous seems like Unsafe gun handling to me.
If a competitor had whined to me that their gun was gonna fall out ahead of time, I woulda told them to get a different holster or modify the one they have before they shoot. 
As pretty clearly that holster is unsafe by the competitors own admission. See 5.2.6

[gerritm]

Guess something I don't understand being a 3-gun and USPSA shooter. Have seen many a pistol of all brands go flying out of the holster in 3-gun first thing we all do before a match is check for retention. Not going to win the stage or match on the draw if there is enough retention to keep it from falling out on a hard movement. 

 

Grant it doesn't need to be so tight you can go prone, but has to be tight enough to keep from falling out when bending over to pick up steel or reset. We shoot a CZ and have a wing nut or button on each holster screw to set tension before the match. Light for USPSA and heavy for 3-gun.

 

gerritm

[Nathanb]

30 minutes ago, gerritm said:

Guess something I don't understand being a 3-gun and USPSA shooter. Have seen many a pistol of all brands go flying out of the holster in 3-gun first thing we all do before a match is check for retention. Not going to win the stage or match on the draw if there is enough retention to keep it from falling out on a hard movement. 

 

Grant it doesn't need to be so tight you can go prone, but has to be tight enough to keep from falling out when bending over to pick up steel or reset. We shoot a CZ and have a wing nut or button on each holster screw to set tension before the match. Light for USPSA and heavy for 3-gun.

 

gerritm

There aren’t many times where you’re running with a holstered pistol in Uspsa. In 3gun that’s a way of life. 

[llamasabound]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

kinda silly, and IMO unsafe gun handling to show up at a match with gear you already know will fail.  Big difference between the opps issue of learning the hard way, vs knowing ahead of time and doing it anyways.
Unfortunately it seems intentionally tossing a gun "IE causing it to fall" is ok.. Kinda ridiculous seems like Unsafe gun handling to me.
If a competitor had whined to me that their gun was gonna fall out ahead of time, I woulda told them to get a different holster or modify the one they have before they shoot. 
As pretty clearly that holster is unsafe by the competitors own admission. See 5.2.6

Retention is not part of 5.2.6

 

Running with holstered guns is a terrible idea in USPSA. 

 

But thanks for the criticism! 

 

I specifically asked the CRO: "do you mind if I see if this *cleared, holstered* gun will be retained by this holster? Neither the CRO nor the RM  had an issue with it. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by llamasabound

[twodownzero]

On 9/30/2020 at 6:58 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

I would never trust that holster again.  No matter what I paid, it would have gone in the trash ASAP.

 

Absolutely 100%, this.

 

On 10/3/2020 at 9:59 PM, motosapiens said:

Not sure what I would do, but with my normal gear (race holster and a heavy-ass limited gun), I certainly wouldn't run around without my hand on the gun, even if the holster was locked. Unfortunate situation, especially to happen at a big match.

 

I agree with this as well.  I used to use a Ghost holster and they are notorious for people dropping their guns, but locked or not locked, I would NEVER trust it without my hand on the gun.  And I would sure as hell have it locked if there was that much movement prior to the draw.  In fact, I would prefer to never have a stage designed in this manner period.  When the buzzer goes off, drawing our guns is the first thought we have.  Stages should generally not involve any significant movement before the gun can be in our hands.

 

7 hours ago, gerritm said:

Guess something I don't understand being a 3-gun and USPSA shooter. Have seen many a pistol of all brands go flying out of the holster in 3-gun first thing we all do before a match is check for retention. Not going to win the stage or match on the draw if there is enough retention to keep it from falling out on a hard movement. 

 

Grant it doesn't need to be so tight you can go prone, but has to be tight enough to keep from falling out when bending over to pick up steel or reset. We shoot a CZ and have a wing nut or button on each holster screw to set tension before the match. Light for USPSA and heavy for 3-gun.

 

gerritm

 

If I regularly went to matches where loaded guns "go flying out of the holster," I would find other places to shoot.  Dropping a loaded gun is never safe or ideal and should be an extreme rarity.  Ideally it should never happen.

 

As an RO, I have never had this happen, not loaded or unloaded.  There is NO REASON why this should have ever happened and that holster is unsafe, period.

 

Cut your losses on this holster and be thankful that nobody was hurt!

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, twodownzero said:

In fact, I would prefer to never have a stage designed in this manner period.  When the buzzer goes off, drawing our guns is the first thought we have.  Stages should generally not involve any significant movement before the gun can be in our hands.

 

I disagree.  Strongly disagree.

[Malarky112]

So I know lots of people are saying dump the holster, its definitely an option.  But other than getting a 3 gun holster, what are my options?  Many competitors I've spoken with, some with way more experience then me, have said that the majority of USPSA holsters would not hold a gun in this situation. 

 

Thinking back, in my 4 or so years of USPSA, this is the 1st time I have ever encountered a stage with movement with a loaded gun in holster.  

 

I am def going to grab my heat gun and see if I can tighten the retention up some with some reworking.

 

And I agree this was not a smart stage design.  Gun on barrel or table would've accomplished the same thing without the risk.  But the stage was the same for everyone, so I can't argue it wasn't fair.

[barry]

I shot this stage with no problem as did hundreds of other people. Put lock on on my holster. Have to know your equipment.  That said it was a stupid requirement.  Dropping a loaded gun that may have a 1 pound trigger is more dangerous to everyone than sweeping your hand. You can sweep yourself on most stages. This is a dq. And how not to is a skill you need to acquire .

Edited October 7, 2020 by barry
Missing word

[gerritm]

13 hours ago, twodownzero said:

 

Absolutely 100%, this.

 

 

I agree with this as well.  I used to use a Ghost holster and they are notorious for people dropping their guns, but locked or not locked, I would NEVER trust it without my hand on the gun.  And I would sure as hell have it locked if there was that much movement prior to the draw.  In fact, I would prefer to never have a stage designed in this manner period.  When the buzzer goes off, drawing our guns is the first thought we have.  Stages should generally not involve any significant movement before the gun can be in our hands.

 

 

If I regularly went to matches where loaded guns "go flying out of the holster," I would find other places to shoot.  Dropping a loaded gun is never safe or ideal and should be an extreme rarity.  Ideally it should never happen.

 

As an RO, I have never had this happen, not loaded or unloaded.  There is NO REASON why this should have ever happened and that holster is unsafe, period.

 

Cut your losses on this holster and be thankful that nobody was hurt!

Typically I have seen this happen with many USPSA shooters who come to shoot 3-gun. Holster is set for USPSA fast draw and they don't check the retention. Many 3-gun stages where the pistol is last gun to shoot and much running/positions involved between rifle/shotgun portion of stage. Doesn't happen at USPSA matches, 99.9% of the time you draw at the start. 

 

We all have retention straps and ways to lock pistol into holster or it is typical to not load the pistol until you reach that portion of the stage. I know many shooters who have similar style holsters that have external knobs/wing nuts on the adjusting screws to retain the pistol. Really not needed in USPSA.

 

gerritm

 

 

[limitedgun]

10 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I disagree.  Strongly disagree.

I agree with SGT_Schultz. In the 80's and 90's there were stages designed at all major matches as a holster test. This stage was just simply running a few feet with a gun in the holster, not nearly what would have been called a holster test stage. The fix is very simple here. It is either faulty equipment or a faulty adjustment. Fix the problem and move on. It will help your mental game immensely to fix the problem and move past this subject.

[Sarge]

11 hours ago, Malarky112 said:

So I know lots of people are saying dump the holster, its definitely an option.  But other than getting a 3 gun holster, what are my options?  Many competitors I've spoken with, some with way more experience then me, have said that the majority of USPSA holsters would not hold a gun in this situation. 

GX Products with clamp lock. Far superior to RHT.
 

https://gxproductsusa.com/product/gx-vice-holster/

 

[CHA-LEE]

You can swap your holster due to the far exception scenario from a stage design perspective or simply chalk it up to a lesson learned and keep using your existing holster. In USPSA stages 99% of the time we draw the gun immediately after the buzzer goes off so having a friction free holster is more important than maximum retention. Multi Gun matches are a different story as there are many times when you are running around on the clock with a holstered pistol. Most of the time those guys are using legit captive hooded retention holsters.

 

You could have tackled this stages prop manipulation scenario in a couple different manners. The first would be to draw the gun immediately and transfer it to your support hand then manipulate the prop with your strong hand then transfer the gun back to your strong hand. Second method would be moving to the prop a little less aggressively, grab the prop with your strong hand then immediately move the strong hand back to the gun and retain the gun in the holster by pushing down on it in the holster while holding he prop and hauling ass.

 

The problem here is that you likely didn't even think of your gun bouncing out of the holster before starting the stage. This is the primary issue that you need to resolve. You need to be able to identify the probability of this scenario happening BEFORE you shoot the stage so you can formulate a solution to keep it from happening. This awareness is really no different than noticing targets are visible beyond the 180 in certain shooting positions and you shouldn't be pointing at them because it would break the 180. I like to say that every stage provides the opportunity to make the wrong decision. You can't blame the stage design, gun, ammo or gear on making the wrong decisions to start off with.

 

With that being said, as an MD myself there is NO WAY I would deploy a stage with a prop manipulation like that. It has nothing to do with testing practical shooting skills. Mandating the use of the Strong Hand to manipulate the prop because you don't want people to sweep themselves should have been a clear warning sign that manipulating a prop at all was a poor idea. People attend shooting matches so they can SHOOT. Not play around with dumb props before they can get to the shooting.

[Intheshaw1]

47 minutes ago, Sarge said:

GX Products with clamp lock. Far superior to RHT.
 

https://gxproductsusa.com/product/gx-vice-holster/

 

I like that cam lock, I've seen it before on a couple different holster but maybe it's worth a purchase. Seems a lot easier than a thumb screw that I currently use.

[blueorison]

16 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I like that cam lock, I've seen it before on a couple different holster but maybe it's worth a purchase. Seems a lot easier than a thumb screw that I currently use.

 

I really like the design, but unlocking on the clock might get clunky, more in USPSA, but also in 3G.

 

Pretty much all use Lvl 2 retention in 3G. If you shoot 3G, some find it a good idea to also use the same Lvl 2 in USPSA so as to have the training be homogenous.

 

It really doesn't slow your draw down if you train with it. You also aren't winning from a faster draw. Something to think about.

 

I shoot a plastic fantastic, so I just crank down my Bladetech in USPSA or 3G and it doesn't even move. 

 

I don't want to bash, but I am not a fan of RHT even before watching your video. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm sorry it happened.