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USPSA - How about adding .22lr (RFPI, RFPO)


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30 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Isn't competition not basically all ego anyway? 

 

Who do you compete against at matches? It's cool, I looked you're the only revo shooter at your club so you don't compete against anyone. 

 

I find I do better approaching the game with humility than ego, personally.

 

As far as competition goes, first off, I'm deeply amused that you went to the trouble. When there aren't revolver shooters to chase or beat, I measure myself against the semi-auto guys in the overall. Nationals results suggest the handicap from top-level Production/SS to top-level Revolver is about 20-30%, and 30-40% from Limited/CO, so I try to finish at least that well against guys in those divisions around my level.

 

Not, I suspect, that you actually care, given that your purpose with that last graf seems to be a cheap attempt at point-scoring.

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42 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I find I do better approaching the game with humility than ego, personally.

 

As far as competition goes, first off, I'm deeply amused that you went to the trouble. When there aren't revolver shooters to chase or beat, I measure myself against the semi-auto guys in the overall. Nationals results suggest the handicap from top-level Production/SS to top-level Revolver is about 20-30%, and 30-40% from Limited/CO, so I try to finish at least that well against guys in those divisions around my level.

 

Not, I suspect, that you actually care, given that your purpose with that last graf seems to be a cheap attempt at point-scoring.

This is a perfect argument for NOT needing a low turnout division at all events. If you know that your going to be looking at other divisions to see how your performing, how does it make any difference if your registered for Open?

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I find I do better approaching the game with humility than ego, personally.

 

As far as competition goes, first off, I'm deeply amused that you went to the trouble. When there aren't revolver shooters to chase or beat, I measure myself against the semi-auto guys in the overall. Nationals results suggest the handicap from top-level Production/SS to top-level Revolver is about 20-30%, and 30-40% from Limited/CO, so I try to finish at least that well against guys in those divisions around my level.

 

Not, I suspect, that you actually care, given that your purpose with that last graf seems to be a cheap attempt at point-scoring.

 

It wasn't much trouble, you link to your match videos in your signature. 

 

I was being a bit of a ass sure, but the point was I already knew you compared yourself to Auto shooters because there aren't any revo shooters. You're already competing against the guys you don't want to compete against. And I'm sure not being in a division where you can't win with your gear has nothing to do with ego.  #National#1revoshooter. Is that top 20 classification % list I assume?

 

Finishing 30% behind someone do to the handicap of your division doesn't mean you'd be competitive with them in their division. That's one of the realizations that made me put the revolver down. The only way to really know where you stand is to compete on level ground. None of the "if I was...." game. Revolver is a totally different game, there virtually no comparing it to other divisions.

 

You should of been around for the 6 shot major days. That was completely different than the current 8 shot game too.

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Back to the original question on 22s

 

I say yes do it like the IDPA Bug  side matches used to be no reloads no holsters run multiple strings for bigger stages. 

have iron and optic and let people have fun if the MD wants to put it on. 

This way the core sport is not changed in any way to adapt to these new divisions. 

 

Along the same lines maybe we learn a little from IDPA (they are not wrong about everything) give L1 MDs the option to try out their division ideas at the local level, they don't count for classification but they very well could be a good source of information on what the membership actually wants and could be used to drive any future changes.

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1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

Back to the original question on 22s

 

I say yes do it like the IDPA Bug  side matches used to be no reloads no holsters run multiple strings for bigger stages. 

have iron and optic and let people have fun if the MD wants to put it on. 

This way the core sport is not changed in any way to adapt to these new divisions. 

 

Along the same lines maybe we learn a little from IDPA (they are not wrong about everything) give L1 MDs the option to try out their division ideas at the local level, they don't count for classification but they very well could be a good source of information on what the membership actually wants and could be used to drive any future changes.

 

This is pretty reasonable. 

 

Really, this already happens a little. I know of clubs that let kids shoot 22's before they were big enough to shoot a real guns. Not sure if they're really supposed to or not, but they did it and no one cared. 

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is pretty reasonable. 

 

Really, this already happens a little. I know of clubs that let kids shoot 22's before they were big enough to shoot a real guns. Not sure if they're really supposed to or not, but they did it and no one cared. 

I've allowed 22 for kids and a little old lady, non of them have been "competing"  though they were just there to learn and or spend time with others that were competing. 

 

I think this kind of illuminates the root of much of the conflict in USPSA today, in this sport we have competitors and participants, for the most part the competitors know it the problem seems to be that there are lots of participants that don't, to be clear there is nothing wrong with being a participant, but knowing the difference is important.

 

I personally have spent more time as a participant than a competitor, I believe its ok to be both and you don't have to stay on either side but you do want to understand what your are there for at any given point in time.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

was being a bit of a ass sure, but the point was I already knew you compared yourself to Auto shooters because there aren't any revo shooters. You're already competing against the guys you don't want to compete against. And I'm sure not being in a division where you can't win with your gear has nothing to do with ego.  #National#1revoshooter. Is that top 20 classification % list I assume?

 

Who's saying I don't want to compete against them? I did before, and that was fun. I'm planning to mess around with some semi-autos after my last major of the year, too, to see how I'm doing when I get to use a dot and don't have to reload as much. I just find I enjoy Revolver more than I enjoyed CO, Production, or Limited, for various reasons. Mainly: I always had good footwork and raw speed, but you can't hide bad technique by going fast with a wheelgun, given how little margin for error there is. I've only shot one match with a semiauto since picking up the revolver, but the control I learned in the latter division made me a whole lot better in the former than I ever was before.

 

National #1 Revolver C is pretty clearly a joke, or at least I thought it was clear—#1 on any of the Top 20 boards beyond the GM one is an accident of mathematics, not an accomplishment.

 

Quote

Finishing 30% behind someone do to the handicap of your division doesn't mean you'd be competitive with them in their division. That's one of the realizations that made me put the revolver down. The only way to really know where you stand is to compete on level ground. None of the "if I was...." game. Revolver is a totally different game, there virtually no comparing it to other divisions.

 

That's a two-way street, but it also doesn't matter. Maybe 'chasing' is a better word than 'competing with'. I'm not using the handicap to say "I totally beat that guy." The only time I can play that card is when I win heads-up.

 

However, If I'm within that handicap window against an A or M semi-auto guy, it means I'm keeping up with a hypothetical revolver guy of about the same level. That held up at the most recent major match I shot; we'll see if it continues to hold up as I try to get a few more majors on the calendar for 2022.

 

30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is a perfect argument for NOT needing a low turnout division at all events. If you know that your going to be looking at other divisions to see how your performing, how does it make any difference if your registered for Open?

 

I think I said above that I think your idea is acceptable, even if I think I'd rather have recognition at area matches and use those activity figures to control slot counts at nationals rather than push divisions down the ladder altogether.

 

The obvious reason why having low-turnout divisions at majors is nice is because it's one of the infrequent times we're guaranteed to shoot together.

 

 

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5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is a perfect argument for NOT needing a low turnout division at all events. If you know that your going to be looking at other divisions to see how your performing, how does it make any difference if your registered for Open?

 

What is gained by him registering in open?

 

Divisions are just bits of data.  It takes zero effort to manage all of them.

 

I'm still trying to get to the real reason why some of you are against divisions with low participation.

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8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Having lots of divisions doesn't improve the sport, it takes away from it. 

 

Maybe put it this way, it devalues winning any division.

 

Can you point out any evidence of that beyond your own hubris?

 

Are there any published papers about this in sports psychology?  Anything besides your opinion?

 

Anything?

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8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 Having lots of divisions doesn't improve the sport, it takes away from it. 

 

Maybe put it this way, it devalues winning any division. The less value something has the less likely people are to work for it. 

 

Odd how well having lots of divisions works so well in NHRA drag racing?  Although they call them classes (over 200) and (15) eliminators.  Same with many other motorsports.

 

Nolan

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After reading the last two pages I decided to see what Divisions were represented in last Sun's shoot.

 

25 CO

8 Open major

12 Limited, including 3 new women with Prod guns but fully loaded mags

5 PCC

5 Prod

3 SS

 

Side note: a couple of Lim major shooters did not register because they had no ammo

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