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Popper calibration check is hugely flawed


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26 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Is there a power factor that the RM ammo has to be between. Or is it just above the minimum ?

Can he show up with a .50 and defense loads ? Idk just asking.    

 

Appendix C1-2:
"Prior to commencement of a match, the calibration ammunition must be chronographed using the procedure specified in Appendix C2. The calibration ammunition, when tested through each designated firearm, should achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify. 9x19 mm is the recommended caliber."

The problem, of course, is that this uses the term "should" instead of "shall" or "must."

 

Of course, then it says, in C1-3:

"Once the supply of ammunition and the designated firearms have been tested and approved by the Range Master, they are not subject to challenge by competitors."

 

....which means that if the calibration ammo isn't chronoed to a certain standard, it shouldn't be approved....

 

Basically:  It should be under the Minor PF limit, and between 115 and 125 PF.

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1 minute ago, driver8M3 said:

[regarding calibration ammo PF]

 

Note that it says "should" and not "must."

 

This is a problem, too.  Because section 3 then says that after it has been chronoed and approved, competitors can't argue about it.

 

So can an RM "approve" chrono ammo at above 125 PF?  How high?  130?  135?

 

I agree that it doesn't say "must" or "shall."  (Not arguing.)  Just.....if it ISN'T below the Minor PF limit of 125.0, I would think that it shouldn't be approved by the RM.

 

The question then really seems to me to be, can the RM "approve" calibration ammo with a PF greater than 125.0?

 

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The problem with the anecdotal "I got popper f*#ked" stories is it they never seem to take into account the 200 other Shooters at the same match that did not get popper f*#ked. So maybe it's you...

 

 

I got to love the "I never shoot below power factor" logic when pretty much every match has people go sub minor and sub major. But yeah,  it is always the poppers fault lol

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1 hour ago, nasty618 said:

Gotta love the "i have been doing this for this many years and i've never seen it happen", therefore it doesnt happen "logic".  

 

it's not really 'therefore it doesn't happen', but 'therefore it doesn't happen nearly as often as some whiners would like us to believe.'  I know it occasionally happens, and it's almost always a result of inattentive or poorly-trained RO's. I think there has been some progress on this at big matches. All the area and national matches I've worked in the last few years the RM has reminded us to manage our steel and not wait until someone gets screwed over to adjust it.

Edited by motosapiens
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2 hours ago, nasty618 said:

Not that we need any more personal accounts of this actually being a thing... but i have witnessed popper f-ing just recently at A8.  There were three challenges on the same squad, the RM remained at the bay after the second one and watched the whole squad shoot.  Weeks later, i spoke to other shooters who confirmed they had the same issue on the same popper but did not challenge it.

It's a self-correcting problem - there are two possibilities: (1) Popper is *out of calibration* and (2) Popper is calibrated. Right?

 

Case 1: If popper is out of calibration, a shooter hits it with a solid minor load and it doesn't fall, he stops and calls for calibration, the RM comes over in a matter of minutes/hours, *confirms* the popper is not calibrated (we are considering case 1 here), the shooter gets a reshoot, next shooter goes, the popper doesn't fall, he stops and calls for calibration, ..., and you get the picture. The (C)RO gets the message that the popper must be properly calibrated or the squad will stay there for dinner. 

 

Case 2: Popper is calibrated, a shooter hits it with a solid minor load and it doesn't fall (low hit, partial hit), he stops and calls for calibration, the RM comes over in a matter of minutes/hours, knocks it down, the shooter is scored "as shot," the next shooter goes, hits the popper, it's wobbling, he hits it again and finishes the stage.

 

Either way, there is a very strong incentive to keep poppers calibrated and an easy fix when they are not. Even if the popper is (for some strange reason) not always reset the same (which the RO should ensure) and it ends up having several different "configurations" where some of them might be uncalibrated, if shooters challenge good hits that don't knock it over there will be enough reshoots where the RO will have to make it right.

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

The problem with the anecdotal "I got popper f*#ked" stories is it they never seem to take into account the 200 other Shooters at the same match that did not get popper f*#ked. So maybe it's you...

 

 

I got to love the "I never shoot below power factor" logic when pretty much every match has people go sub minor and sub major. But yeah,  it is always the poppers fault lol

I 100% agree with this^^^ it seems like every thing is always someone, or something else's fault, it would never be MY loads, I always make chrono, said while removing a squib at the safe table. LOL granted the RO's need to pay attention and keep things adjusted, but it's not always the RO. Give them a break, and step up and take some responsibility.

Edited by mchapman
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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

'therefore it doesn't happen nearly as often as some whiners would like us to believe.'  I know it occasionally happens,

 

I have lost matches by less than a few points.  In some cases it was as little as a make up shot that i should not have taken... but those were local matches so who cares.  If you've ever lost a match by a fart as well, then i am sure you know it still stings.  So if you were someone who was in contention for winning a major match and lost it on a calibration challenge... I think you would see it differently.  But maybe not, i dont know. 

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

All the area and national matches I've worked in the last few years the RM has reminded us to manage our steel and not wait until someone gets screwed over to adjust it

I think that's a very good way of avoiding these issues and while it may not resolve competitors getting f-ed by popper calibration completely, it definitely seems like a step in the right direction and a good general practice.

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1 hour ago, IVC said:

It's a self-correcting problem

The shooters on my squad all hit the popper in the calibration zone.  They all lost the challenge.  For one of them, it took the popper almost a full second to fall after the RM shot it.  Yet nothing was done after that at least to my knowledge.  So I am not sure i understand how this was a self correcting issue for them. 

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The CORRECT answer to the situation is for the stage’s crew to realize they have stubborn steel and immediately adjust it so that it falls consistently for shooters throwing minor ammo at it.

 

Why everyone working matches doesn’t share this mindset is beyond me. It’s disappointingly common for people to share experiences at majors where questionably stubborn steel was left semi-broken for the duration of the match.

 

DNROI expressely spelled out maintenance / adjustment  of steel targets as an RO’s responsibility a few years back. Explicitly.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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4 hours ago, IVC said:

It's a self-correcting problem - there are two possibilities: (1) Popper is *out of calibration* and (2) Popper is calibrated. Right?

 

Case 1: If popper is out of calibration, a shooter hits it with a solid minor load and it doesn't fall, he stops and calls for calibration, the RM comes over

 

Yup, self-correcting problem......shooter doesn't knock down popper and stops shooting.  RM comes over, shoots popper and it falls, stage is scored as shot.....12 failures to engage, etc....

 

Nolan

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What is this stop shooting that you speak of? If you stop and lose the challenge, the stage gets scored as shot including penalties for everything you didn’t engage. Best to finish the stage THEN call for calibration.

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9 hours ago, RJH said:

The problem with the anecdotal "I got popper f*#ked" stories is it they never seem to take into account the 200 other Shooters at the same match that did not get popper f*#ked. So maybe it's you...

 

 

I got to love the "I never shoot below power factor" logic when pretty much every match has people go sub minor and sub major. But yeah,  it is always the poppers fault lol


we had a dude get busted a few years ago for tacking on two seconds to competitors’ times.

 

so I wouldn’t put it past some other shooter going forward while pasting and resetting steel to give a few cranks to the popper’s adjustment bolt for some guy he doesn’t like...when it is his turn to shoot.

 

or conversely, making sure the popper is set as lightly as possible when it is his turn to shot.

 

 

Edited by Chills1994
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8 hours ago, nasty618 said:

The shooters on my squad all hit the popper in the calibration zone.  They all lost the challenge.  For one of them, it took the popper almost a full second to fall after the RM shot it.  Yet nothing was done after that at least to my knowledge.  So I am not sure i understand how this was a self correcting issue for them. 

To lose the challenge the popper must fall when hit with sub-minor ammunition and it must be hit in the calibration zone, not above it. You can't tell me that the popper knew whether it was hit by the RM or the competitor - something just doesn't add up here. 

 

Slow poppers are the fact of life. PCC guys (with unlimited ammo sticks) will often shoot poppers 3-5 times to speed up the fall, but that doesn't mean the popper isn't calibrated. Again, if it doesn't fall when hit once, it's not a valid popper. Otherwise it is. 

 

I understand your frustration - when it's close and you're trying to squeeze every last bit of performance, it can be frustrating. That's why there is calibration. If the popper falls when hit with the sub-minor, it is good to go and you might have had to hit it again if it hadn't been a good hit. There is no guarantee that the steel will fall on the first shot and there is no automatic REF for poppers that don't fall when hit. An alternative is to use plates. They score the way you would like - they either fall or it's a REF. 

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5 hours ago, Nolan said:

Yup, self-correcting problem......shooter doesn't knock down popper and stops shooting.  RM comes over, shoots popper and it falls, stage is scored as shot.....12 failures to engage, etc....

Exactly. And on the next stage, the shooter finishes the stage and calls for calibration at that time, or shoots an extra round and makes sure the steel falls in order to score... It is indeed self-correcting. 

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2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:


we had a dude get busted a few years ago for tacking on two seconds to competitors’ times.

 

so I wouldn’t put it past some other shooter going forward while pasting and resetting steel to give a few cranks to the popper’s adjustment bolt for some guy he doesn’t like...when it is his turn to shoot.

 

or conversely, making sure the popper is set as lightly as possible when it is his turn to shot.

 

 

 

Wow!  You need to get out of your basement more often and please leave the tinfoil hat behind. 

 

On second thought, If that's what you think of your fellow competitors/Enosverse members, leave the tinfoil hat on and stay in the basement.

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1 hour ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

Wow!  You need to get out of your basement more often and please leave the tinfoil hat behind. 

 

On second thought, If that's what you think of your fellow competitors/Enosverse members, leave the tinfoil hat on and stay in the basement.

I used to be a MD.

 

I also SO’ed and RO’ed national level matches .

 

so, I have seen some things.

 

oh, about 15 years ago, here in the St. Louis area we had a married couple who used to shoot with us.  More than once the husband was spotted going through the motions of pasting targets when it was his wife’s turn to shoot, but he didn’t actually paste the targets if they were two alphas or two down zeros.

 

I would assume the vice versa was happening when it was his turn to shoot.


for the longest time I had this quote from the golfing world as my signature line here:

 

 “Competition doesn’t build character.  It reveals it.”

 

🙂

Edited by Chills1994
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On 9/9/2020 at 7:22 PM, motosapiens said:

to be fair, I did observe the current A2 director get popper-f*cked at A2 a couple years ago before he was elected. The RO was a bit of a dick about it too, and also a bit of a dick about my concerns when we shot the same stage. I brought the problem to the attention of the RM, and then I made sure I got a good hit on the popper. I think over the last few years most CRO's have gotten with the program that Troy and others have been pushing, which is to keep an eye on the poppers and adjust when needed. When I work a big match, I check and adjust the poppers before every single squad.

What is your process for checking and adjusting them?

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14 hours ago, Chills1994 said:


we had a dude get busted a few years ago for tacking on two seconds to competitors’ times.

 

so I wouldn’t put it past some other shooter going forward while pasting and resetting steel to give a few cranks to the popper’s adjustment bolt for some guy he doesn’t like...when it is his turn to shoot.

 

or conversely, making sure the popper is set as lightly as possible when it is his turn to shot.

 

 

Happens a lot with forward falling poppers,

If they are not set right they will just wobble when hit.

Not saying shooters do it on purpose, they just are not familiar with them.

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15 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

 

 

 “Competition doesn’t build character.  It reveals it.”

 

🙂

 

 

And the character I've seen revealed in nearly 30 years of competition has shown me the exact opposite of your characterization of our fellow competitors.

 

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On 9/11/2020 at 4:03 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

The CORRECT answer to the situation is for the stage’s crew to realize they have stubborn steel and immediately adjust it so that it falls consistently for shooters throwing minor ammo at it.

 

Why everyone working matches doesn’t share this mindset is beyond me. It’s disappointingly common for people to share experiences at majors where questionably stubborn steel was left semi-broken for the duration of the match.

 

DNROI expressely spelled out maintenance / adjustment  of steel targets as an RO’s responsibility a few years back. Explicitly.

 

I accept even begin to count how many times someone sent for me because a popper was falling slow or heavy etc.  my answer was did anyone take a look at it to see if it needed adjusted?  It’s such a simple thing to take a look at it but initiative isn’t always taken 

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