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Does a Tungsten guide rod cause muzzle dip?


Sokam101
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  • Sokam101 changed the title to Does a Tungsten guide rod cause muzzle dip?

Hello: The tungsten guide rod does not cause muzzle dip. What it does do is slow down the muzzle rise and add weight to the front. For me it is too much weight when you add the Legion grip as well. It also makes transitions a little slower for me. Funny thing is when you use just the X5 grip with the tungsten weight in it and the tungsten guide rod it makes a nice combo for me using 124's. I need to do more testing to see which setup is faster. It maybe worth a try to see what works for you. Thanks, Eric

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When I got my tungsten grip I was having bad muzzle dip. I tried tungsten rod and no tungsten rod. Not having the tungsten rod made a little difference, but not much. I did some slow mo and with the help of a friend, figured out my recoil spring was too heavy causing the dip. I went from 14lb testing each lb down to 11lb. The first few shots with the 11lb spring felt like a malfunction because it was so soft. If someone is getting dip with a tungsten rod, I’d bet it’s because of over springing. 

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38 minutes ago, Manwithnoname said:

When I got my tungsten grip I was having bad muzzle dip. I tried tungsten rod and no tungsten rod. Not having the tungsten rod made a little difference, but not much. I did some slow mo and with the help of a friend, figured out my recoil spring was too heavy causing the dip. I went from 14lb testing each lb down to 11lb. The first few shots with the 11lb spring felt like a malfunction because it was so soft. If someone is getting dip with a tungsten rod, I’d bet it’s because of over springing. 

I've been doing the same with slow motion video on doubles. It could always be me but Im squeezing the crap out of the gun with my left and and its not leaving my hand or support hand pointer finger on the trigger guard. Maybe its wrist elbow or shoulder lock but im getting pretty frustrated with it. My groups have been decent but I want it to look good slow motion. Im using a 12lb that came with the gun. Im going to try without and with an 11lb and see if that makes a difference. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Manwithnoname said:

When I got my tungsten grip I was having bad muzzle dip. I tried tungsten rod and no tungsten rod. Not having the tungsten rod made a little difference, but not much. I did some slow mo and with the help of a friend, figured out my recoil spring was too heavy causing the dip. I went from 14lb testing each lb down to 11lb. The first few shots with the 11lb spring felt like a malfunction because it was so soft. If someone is getting dip with a tungsten rod, I’d bet it’s because of over springing. 

I didn’t do any slo mo but my experience and conclusions with the factory GR and 14lb recoil spring we’re the same as yours.

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  • 4 months later...

I agree with the above...muzzle dip is just a function of physics...when the recoil spring pushes the slide back into battery the moment of inertia driving the barrel and slide comes to an abrupt stop causing the object to rotate around its an axis.  I've experimented with holding the gun with less tension which allows the gun to settle in the hand more "softly"...I've found that when I muscle the gun, by trying to hold it in place, it seems to just amplify the movement because I am trying to force something to happen, when I should just be letting the gun recoil...give it a good try and you might be impressed with the result.

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Using a tungsten guide rod with a 13# spring and have no muzzle dip. I prefer it shooting on the move. 

Didn't make much difference in splits( only 2 A's accepted for testing) at 10yrds. .17-.19 on average. 

Bill drills were a tad tighter with the tungsten.  But nothing huge. 

As said above, recoil spring and grip have a LOT to do with it. 

Edited by echotango
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Kinetic energy from reciprocating mass increases movement of the gun in hand. Inertia from non-reciprocating mass reduces movement of the gun that would be caused by kinetic energy. Since the guide rod itself doesn’t reciprocate when the slide cycles, it does not contribute to movement of the gun in hand (in the case of your question, muzzle dip)

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  • 3 weeks later...

For me on my X5 Legion I found the added weight of a tungsten rod to dip based on how I normally drive the dot back down under recoil. I ended up going back to the regular stainless guide rod. 

 

I was previously mainly shooting a 5'' M&P 2.0 with a steel guide rod up front, so I think I developed a pretty aggressive return using a much lighter gun. 

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Extra non-reciprocating weight, such as a heavier guide rod, will absolutely effect the muzzle deflection in both directions. Adding more non-reciprocating weight is usually associated with reduced upwards displacement as the slide bottoms out in the rearward position. But it also creates increased downward momentum the slide snaps forward.

 

The more weight that is displaced also means that there is more weight to control on the return. I am not surprised that you are experiencing a "Muzzle Dip" scenario as the slide snaps forward after putting in a heavier guide rod. You would have to grip the gun harder in order to offset the increased weight displacement. Or balance the non-reciprocating weight of the gun to your current grip pressure so that the muzzle doesn't dip low after the slide snaps forward.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/22/2021 at 4:41 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Extra non-reciprocating weight, such as a heavier guide rod, will absolutely effect the muzzle deflection in both directions. Adding more non-reciprocating weight is usually associated with reduced upwards displacement as the slide bottoms out in the rearward position. But it also creates increased downward momentum the slide snaps forward.

 

The more weight that is displaced also means that there is more weight to control on the return. I am not surprised that you are experiencing a "Muzzle Dip" scenario as the slide snaps forward after putting in a heavier guide rod. You would have to grip the gun harder in order to offset the increased weight displacement. Or balance the non-reciprocating weight of the gun to your current grip pressure so that the muzzle doesn't dip low after the slide snaps forward.

A lighter recoil spring to could do the trick

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On 1/22/2021 at 5:41 PM, CHA-LEE said:

But it also creates increased downward momentum the slide snaps forward.

 

Not according to the law of conservation of momentum. The momentum of the frame (regardless of its mass) is the same as the momentum of the slide.  When the slide stops, it transfers all of its momentum to the frame.

 

M1 is the frame's mass with the OEM guide rod.  M2 is same with the tungsten guide rod

 

Since the slide's mass and velocity are assumed to stay constant, it's momentum is constant.

 

The law of conservation of momentum requires the momentum of the frame (regardless of its mass) to be equal to the momentum of the slide.

 

Mathematically M1 x V1 (momentum of frame with OEM guide rod) = M2 x V2 (momentum of frame with heavier guide rod).  M2 > M1, so V2 has to be lower than V1

 

The lower velocity of the heavier frame makes it easier to resist its downwards movement.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Not according to the law of conservation of momentum. The momentum of the frame (regardless of its mass) is the same as the momentum of the slide.  When the slide stops, it transfers all of its momentum to the frame.

 

M1 is the frame's mass with the OEM guide rod.  M2 is same with the tungsten guide rod

 

Since the slide's mass and velocity are assumed to stay constant, it's momentum is constant.

 

The law of conservation of momentum requires the momentum of the frame (regardless of its mass) to be equal to the momentum of the slide.

 

Mathematically M1 x V1 (momentum of frame with OEM guide rod) = M2 x V2 (momentum of frame with heavier guide rod).  M2 > M1, so V2 has to be lower than V1

 

The lower velocity of the heavier frame makes it easier to resist its downwards movement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can apply math to this and "Think" that is how it "Should" work, or do slow motion video of each weight config to PROVE what it does to gun motion and displacement. I have chosen to video this stuff using many different configurations to capture empirical evidence showing which weight configuration does what. Yes this takes time and effort which most people are too lazy to do themselves. 

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38 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

You can apply math to this and "Think" that is how it "Should" work, or do slow motion video of each weight config to PROVE what it does to gun motion and displacement. I have chosen to video this stuff using many different configurations to capture empirical evidence showing which weight configuration does what. Yes this takes time and effort which most people are too lazy to do themselves. 

 

Math is how it works, it doesn't matter what you or I think.

 

Motion capture needs to be analyzed correctly for its interpretation to be useful.  The fact that you don't understand what momentum is or how it's calculated makes me doubt the validity of your conclusions.

 

BTW, if the pistol was held in someone's hands then there's a shitload more variables at play here which makes drawing conclusions even more of a guess.

 

If you care to share the video for all to see..........

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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Hell: I am with Charlie on this one. You can do all the math you want but video and hits on paper are what matter in this sport. I have seen Charlie shoot up close and you would be hard pressed to say that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Thanks, Eric

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On 2/7/2021 at 2:43 PM, Aircooled6racer said:

Hell: I am with Charlie on this one. You can do all the math you want but video and hits on paper are what matter in this sport. I have seen Charlie shoot up close and you would be hard pressed to say that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Thanks, Eric

This

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Obviously in this thread you have the science and the art. That, to me, is the cool part about shooting. 

 

For me personally, generally speaking (and has been mentioned), I like more "non-moving" weight and less "moving" weight. I really don't know much about the true science of energy or anything like that but here's at least what my experience tells me.

 

A lighter slide can come back a little sharper but in many cases I like how a lighter slide returns better. It can be less snappy. Yes, this can be also controlled with the recoil spring. Outside of a slide though I tend to like a heavier gun. So I use the TXG grip and I have a tungsten guide rod. I'm still dabbling with the right recoil spring but intend to keep the guide rod. 

 

The science is real and can't be debated however there are numberous factors involved in shooting. Your reflex at the shot, your grip, how you see ... so many factors. 

 

So IMO the real test is to use a tungsten guide rod, shoot the gun a little, and see how you perform with it. If better then great, if not then sell it and now you know.

 

The only caution I will throw out there is first impressions. They can be deceiving. Way back in the day I remember when I shot my first 9X25 open gun. It was a 115 grain bullet using a TON of H110 powder. My first shot with that thing the gun went down. Literally ... not only did the muzzle not rise, it went down. So that first impression, had I stuck with it, likely would have said that wouldn't have worked. However the group I was with shot it, and we shot it more, and we shot it more. And over time we learned how to shoot it. Which lead to it being something that I could perform with better than anything I've ever shot - before or since. 

 

My point being shoot the gun a bit in several configurations. Learn how things change based on how you shoot. And then go from there.

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On 2/10/2021 at 6:31 PM, j1b said:

My point being shoot the gun a bit in several configurations. Learn how things change based on how you shoot. And then go from there.

^^^^^ Agree

 

Borrowed a friends P320 (non-Legion) and stuck the tungsten guide rod in it with the associated 1911-style spring.  Slow-motion video taped firing the gun with and without the tungsten in it.  To me it seemed like there was no difference.  The video showed a little bit of difference in muzzle climb.

 

Finally got a Legion of my own and put the tungsten guide rod in it.  Have been shooting it for a while and can compare it to the backup Legion that has the stock guide rod.  To me, there is a noticeable difference.  The dot stays in the target body versus climbing up over the head.

 

YMMV

 

BC

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Hello: I have played around with different setups with my P320 X5 non legion. The best setup I have used is steel guide rod, 12.5lb ISMI 1911 recoil spring, legion grip and 124 grain bullets. I sold the tungsten guide rod I had and the tungsten grip weight. Use a timer and look on paper to see what gives you the best results. Make sure you have big transitions in the drill you use. Super heavy is not always the best setup. Thanks, Eric

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