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Advice at getting started in these difficult times!


ML123

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I definitely picked the wrong year to get into shooting sports lol!!  I was plenty content buying Fed Syntech 135g delivered to my door for $234/1000rds.  I think those days are gone for the foreseeable future and right now I don't have enough 9mm ammo to get through the rest of this season.  So I have decided to start re-loading and could use some advice as my knowledge base at this point comes from this site and youtube lol!
 
I have been collecting the materials to make ammo and today I found some CCI small rifle primers in stock at local shop.  I can now load at least 1000 rounds.  I have 8# of Titegroup on its way along with 2000 once fired cases plus the stuff I have collected.  I also order 3000 147g Black bullets with Hi-Tek coating which will be as as soon as USPS will get it here.
 
I am shooting a CZ Shadow 2 to start I am planning to use 3.2gr Titegroup at 1.15 OAL and 147g bullet which should give me a 130 power factor?  My buddy (who I may use his press to get started) uses the same load but at 1.172 and shoots an Atlas 2011 I am guessing the 1.172 is going to be a little long for a CZ? 
 
In the meantime I am lookng to order a press, dies and whatever else you guys think I should need?
 
I think I am going to go with the Hornady LnL Ammo Plant with bullet and case feeder.  It seems like it is a really decent press but has a few quirks like anything else.  The price is right at $1098 at midsouthshooterssupply.com and its available!  I know a lot of people on here are die hard Dillon but a 750xl(which is on BO) with a case feeder and a Mr. Bullet feeder is going to be considerably more money than the Hornady and out of my budget.  I am however open to suggestions as I haven't purchased anything yet other than materials. 
 
I am also going to get the Lee Precision Deluxe 4 die set and Hornady Shell plate and a Hogodon Manual when I order the press.
 
I have a good set of digital calipers and a digital scale, I am going to pick up a Harbor Freight tumbler and I should have any basic tools that would be required.
 
Anything I am missing you guys would suggest?  Open to comments and feedback I am totally new at this.
Thanks
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Those CCI small rifle primers may cause some issues. In a minor round, they may not seal the primer pocket as well as other rounds and you may get breech face erosion. CCI SRP are harder than the small pistol primers. 

 

As for OAL for the CZ, the only way to know exactly what your barrel will take is to do the plunk test. In my CZ, when I was using a 124 MG JHP, I had to load those at 1.085 for them to work. With Precision Delta 147 FMJ's, I load them to 1.150. 

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1.15 with a 147gr bullet is probably too long for your CZ (they usually load short, really short). Determine your own max OAL instead of throwing darts.

 

On 7/12/2020 at 1:52 PM, 4n2t0 said:

The HAP plunked at max OAL in the CZ barrel? I'm surprised. Don't forget to check magazine function.

 

Here's a little information (none of it mine):

 

482871608_CZOAL.jpeg.d2e68282148f8402fd7d306c27442357.jpeg

2021457248_DetermineOAL.gif.ff555d2f8d55ee916192a34b01ccb858.gif

 

 

You can go with the LnL but there's a reason Dillon dominates. Eventually you'll get a Dillon.

 

Lee dies work well.

Edited by 4n2t0
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3 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

Those CCI small rifle primers may cause some issues. In a minor round, they may not seal the primer pocket as well as other rounds and you may get breech face erosion. CCI SRP are harder than the small pistol primers. 

 

As for OAL for the CZ, the only way to know exactly what your barrel will take is to do the plunk test. In my CZ, when I was using a 124 MG JHP, I had to load those at 1.085 for them to work. With Precision Delta 147 FMJ's, I load them to 1.150. 

I am not using them by choice lol, desperate times...  I did research it some and there were several folks on here using them.  I will only load a few rounds to start with anyway so I will test them.  Will this be something I would see on the breech face after just a few rounds?

 

I found Hi-Powerjacks post on the plunk test I will follow that advice.  I did measure a few rounds of factory ammo, 115g Blazer Brass is 1.15 and the 135g Syntech was 1.12 I have many rounds of both through my gun without an issue.

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3 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

1.15 with a 147gr bullet is probably too long for your CZ (they usually load short, really short). Determine your own max OAL instead of throwing darts.

 

 

You can go with the LnL but there's a reason Dillon dominates. Eventually you'll get a Dillon.

 

Lee dies work well.

Thanks for the info.  I am just getting started and hope the Hornady will be all I need for now.  I will upgrade if it gets to be to much to mess with or I start shooting/loading a lot more.  I was going to start with a Lee lol.  I am also planning to eventually do 223/556 and will probably just get a second press at that point since I read that the Hornady is a PIA to switch over.

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I did read that post on here recently about the new loader blowing up his Sig X5 with a double charge.  I was looking for progressive press with 5 stations so I could put the powder checking dies.  Any suggestions on this?

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7 minutes ago, ML123 said:

I am not using them by choice lol, desperate times...  I did research it some and there were several folks on here using them.  I will only load a few rounds to start with anyway so I will test them.  Will this be something I would see on the breech face after just a few rounds?

 

I found Hi-Powerjacks post on the plunk test I will follow that advice.  I did measure a few rounds of factory ammo, 115g Blazer Brass is 1.15 and the 135g Syntech was 1.12 I have many rounds of both through my gun without an issue.

It is possible the signs of erosion can show up after just a few rounds, depending on badly the primer seals the pocket. I would suggest trading them to someone with an open gun for some pistol primers, but if you choose to use them, take a sewing needle and drag it across the breech face from the firing pin to the outside. You should be able to feel any erosion as rough spots.

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1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said:

It is possible the signs of erosion can show up after just a few rounds, depending on badly the primer seals the pocket. I would suggest trading them to someone with an open gun for some pistol primers, but if you choose to use them, take a sewing needle and drag it across the breech face from the firing pin to the outside. You should be able to feel any erosion as rough spots.

Awesome Thanks, 13 more posts and I will post them for trade in the classifieds lol, that's a great idea.

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2 hours ago, ML123 said:

I am new and have WAY more questions to ask than stuff to sell lol!  I bought a few things off the classifieds already that went well, I will follow the rules.

Could try to trade them on Armslist as well.

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If your around south jersey I'll trade you. 

 

Don't buy into the Dillon fan boy stuff on here, don't get me wrong it's good stuff but there's a ton of guys using the LnL with great results. 

 

Don't waste your money on the bullet feeder or a powder check die. Either make or get the in line fabrication tray adapter for the extra tray on the front. Fill that one with heads, use your eyes to look into the case to check your powder level and place the bullets on the case. Keep your eyes on the shell plate. Once you get set up all you have to do is pull the handle and place the bullet, over and over and over...... 

Edited by louu
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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry I missed a few replies

 

I updated my profile to include my location.


Ends up the small rifle primers I had are magnum small rifle so they are not going to work.  I sold them for close to going rate and now plan to buy small pistol primers at the current going rate.  I am willing to spend Gunbroker money on 1k primers so I can get started and at least load enough ammo to get through the rest of this season.  I would much rather pay inflated rates to a board member here so if anyone has 1k small pistol primers they would like to part with for 3/4x what they paid I would be appreciative and happy to buy them.

 

On the breech face issue I read about rifle rounds will using a sealant in the primer pocket.  Would this help that situation at all on 9mm?

 

Thanks Louu I think I am going to go with the LnL mostly because it seems like it will be easier and less expensive to swap between 9mm and 223.  I have not ruled out a new 750xl and was planning on starting out just like you suggested feeding the bullets by hand.

 

I just bought a Lee APP press to process brass and picked up 2k crimped rifle brass and 3k 9mm brass to keep me busy for awhile.  I have all the parts to load rifle so may be starting with that since I have primers.  Any suggestions of a good powder to start with to load 223 for 3 gun?  I bought 55gr FMJ from Everglades to start with.  Once ammo prices come back to earth I only plan to load heavier match grade rounds for rifle and will continue to use XM193 surplus ammo for plinking and anything under 100yds.

 

I also think I am going to pick up a different powder to start with on pistol other than Titegroup.  I saw Universal Unique 700x and Red Dot were suggested.  I am thinking 700x since Midway has it in stock?

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Don't get 700x it doesn't always meter well in most powder measures. Personally I'm not a fan of titegroup but it is a decent powder and lots of people use it. Actually it seems as if every new reloader uses it without any problems. Just use what you have and after November 3rd when prices go back to normal try sport pistol or hp38 (win231) or maybe n320 if you want to spend the money.. 

 

For 223 power and 55gn bullets there's lots of good powder if you don't mind the smell or smoke get tac, cfe223, h335. If you want a powder that will do both heavies like 77gn for long range and 55gn for hoser stuff under 200 yards get IMR8208XBR, it's clean, meters perfectly in almost every powder measures (it does meter perfectly in the LnL powder measure) it has no smoke and no smell. It is a few bucks more than other powders though. 

If your want a cheap quick way to trim, chamfer and debur your 223 brass all in one step get the guraurd tri way trimmer and put it on the end of a cheap bench grinder from harbor freight with a shaft collar from eBay. 

 

 

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I went down the LNL road years ago. A friend and I had convinced ourselves that red was as good as blue but I will admit I was wrong. Red makes good ammo but blue is definitely a better machine. I eventually even had a pair of LNL presses set up. I had some money and just had to see what the 650 was all about so I ordered one and set it up for .223. After the first day I realized what I had been missing. I sold the other LNL and ordered another Dillon.  I won’t argue all the things back and forth but I Would never say red is as good as blue. 

 

I didn’t like 700x for anything myself. .223 has plenty of usable powder options. Louu gave you some good choices if you can find them. 

 

ML123, I’m in Howard, OH. If you have time for a road trip I can probably help you get started with some primers. PM me a phone number and I’ll give you a call.

Edited by mscott
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I have used both an LNL Ammo Plant and a Dillon 1050. I will tell you that the Dillon press is a step above the LNL. You do pay a lot more for the Dillon, but it is worth it. The Dillon is a press that can run round after round without any hiccups. I can’t say I had the same luck with the LNL.

I had issues with the case feeder(brass getting stuck in the tube at the top and brass falling off of the press before being inserted into the shell plates because it is unsupported). I also had an issue with the bullet feeder (it keeps running and does not have a shut off unless you have the rifle feeder). I am not sure if they have updated that. Dillon doesn’t actually make one so I guess I can’t compare the two in this aspect because I have the Mr. Bullet Feeder.

I did like the LNL Die System because of the quick changeover and cheaper price for caliber changeover. However, I purchased toolheads from Calguns cheap so I like switching the toolhead with everything dialed in including the powder measures.

Everybody will have their own story of their experience with the two presses. It all depends on the user.
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Louu thanks for the tips and feedback on 700x.  I am am going to go with H335 it seems to be a pretty popular powder and Midway has it in stock.  I will try the IMR8 if it ever comes back into stock again.  I gotta have that triway cutter and sending Doug and email now lol!

 

MSCOTT Thanks for the offer I may take you up on that I will send a PM with my info. 

 

CamaroSS400 that is a really nice reloading room and I like the fact that you have and use both presses and can give feedback.

 

So is a DIllon 1050/1100 pretty much a 650/750 with all the accessories or is it a completely different press?

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I am moving forward and finally have most of what I need to load both 9mm and .223 from a material and equipment point.  I just purchased a press, dies and most of what I need to set up a reloading room.

 

Here is what I purchased so far for equipment:

I broke down and went Dillon XK750 for 9mm

Dillon casefeeder

Dillon small pistol case feeder plate

Dillon Strong mount and roller handle and bullet tray (I am following advice and waiting on getting a bullet feeder)

Lee 9mm 4 die set

Digital scale and calipers I already have, Mitotoyo

Lee .223 4 piece die set

Lee Deluxe APP press

Lee 223 Pocket Swage kit

MSSS, tumbler and brass cleaning kit

 

Materials:

For 9mm

Black Bullets coated 9mm 147g lost in election postal service hell

9mm once fired polished brass from Precision brass

Titegroup powder

CCI BR-4 Small rifle primers

I still plan to order a Hundo 9mm gauge case and MTM storage case for 9mm from BSPS.

 

For 223

500 55g Everglades 223 FMJ

250 77g Nosler HPBT

Once fired polished brass from Precision Brass with crimps

H355 powder

CCI #450 Small rifle Magnum primers

I am planning to order a Triway Giraurd Trimmer.  I will also need another small rifle case feeder plate, toolhead caliber conversion kit and powder charge from Dillon to load 223

 

I broke down on getting the Dillon as money was only real issue while quality and performance is better even slightly in every review I have seen. Is Dillon worth the extra $$ probably not BUT my time is and in the end I can afford it and plan to be doing this for awhile.

 

Getting materials is a real issue.  I seemed to be able to acquire 223 stuff easier. Ironically I got 1k rounds of PMC Bronze 223 delivered yesterday from a BO I placed back in May for .34/round!  I am sure XM193 will once again be cheap and I am happy to buy it and use it but would like the option of loading better quality ammo where it seems the real savings in 223 comes in, processing the brass seems to be a lot of work and why I got an APP press.

 

I REALLY need 9mm and currently do not have enough to get through this season and still practice.  I dont want to be in this situation in the future so loading 9mm in volume is going to be a necessity even when times get better.   I have 1k SMR CCI BR-4 primers I am going to use for a 9mm load.  I am going to try loading the rounds at a higher Power factor 130-135 and consider trying Markcon primer sealant in the primer pocket to mitigate the issue with breech face erosion with lower PF rounds and small rifle primers.

 

Thanks for all the info provided so far it has been very helpful.

 

 

 

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On 8/21/2020 at 8:29 PM, ML123 said:

Thanks for the info.  I am just getting started and hope the Hornady will be all I need for now.  I will upgrade if it gets to be to much to mess with or I start shooting/loading a lot more.  I was going to start with a Lee lol.  I am also planning to eventually do 223/556 and will probably just get a second press at that point since I read that the Hornady is a PIA to switch over.

I started with a Lee Turret Press.  I still have it and I use it for some load development for rifle rounds.  I, like most switched to a Dillon and it was the best thing I ever did.  I started with a casefeeder and I added a bullet feeder on when I could. secondly, both 9mm and 223 are small primer.  The changeover on the Dillon will take about 5 minutes.  I also think you answered your own question of which press to get in the bold statement above.  It might be hard, but I would look for one in the classifieds.  Someone might have fallen on hard times and they need to offload it.  

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ML123,

 

I agree that you should get some One Shot case lube.  Also agree you should get a Shockbottle hundo.  Safety=peace-of-mind.  Also glad you did not spend (for now) money on a bullet feeder.  THAT day will come...but for now, loading a bullet onto every shell offers the eyes a chance to see powder in the case AND do a quick inspect of the case itself for cracks.

 

My advise....I don't think mentioned here.... don't overfill your casefeeder.  I tend to STILL lube about 150 at a time in 9mm and toss em into the hopper.  Without an auto-load primer set up, you have to take breaks anyway.  A noob reloader should never be in a hurry.  Also if you have lubed cases sitting in the hopper for any length of time, the One Shot is likely to become a dust magnet imo.  Empty after each use; I tend to finish sessions when cases are low in the tube, none in the hopper.

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