Your club

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:51 PM, GOF said:

There was a time, back when Bill Wilson ran things, where each state had an SO trainer. They would travel from club to club and hold training classes for those shooters the MD recommended become SOs. I was certified via that route in 2007. It was an eight-hour class, including range time. The trainers were all paid a monthly stipend to cover their time and travel. Joyce Fowler stopped that when she took over; too expensive. No money for the trainers, and thus not too many trainers. Not surprising that local clubs have 'not so well-trained' SOs.

 

That explains a lot

[Zincwarrior]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:51 PM, GOF said:

There was a time, back when Bill Wilson ran things, where each state had an SO trainer. They would travel from club to club and hold training classes for those shooters the MD recommended become SOs. I was certified via that route in 2007. It was an eight-hour class, including range time. The trainers were all paid a monthly stipend to cover their time and travel. Joyce Fowler stopped that when she took over; too expensive. No money for the trainers, and thus not too many trainers. Not surprising that local clubs have 'not so well-trained' SOs.

I remember the state trainers (thats how I did mine). I did not know that has changed. How does it work now? 

[GOF]

6 hours ago, Zincwarrior said:

I remember the state trainers (thats how I did mine). I did not know that has changed. How does it work now? 

I do not know. On a local level, training like you and I went through  (with the state trainer) is non-existent... meaning they let any shooter who is sort of a regular shooter to be a SO. Doesn't work very well in my experience. I've shot some local Tier 1 matches and (being formally Certified, with the certificate) it was a zoo.

I have heard (maybe wrongly) that at state & regional matches they have a trainer who can hold classes and certify. But, I do not know.

I do suspect that if it costs Joyce a nickel to get a well-trained SO... she won't spend it.

[Zincwarrior]

Well thats not good. I thought the class was excellent. Without it it inhibits new SOs and the old SOs will burn out. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, GOF said:

I do not know. On a local level, training like you and I went through  (with the state trainer) is non-existent... meaning they let any shooter who is sort of a regular shooter to be a SO. Doesn't work very well in my experience. I've shot some local Tier 1 matches and (being formally Certified, with the certificate) it was a zoo.

I have heard (maybe wrongly) that at state & regional matches they have a trainer who can hold classes and certify. But, I do not know.

I do suspect that if it costs Joyce a nickel to get a well-trained SO... she won't spend it.

 

Even match directors in my local area are clueless or don't care

[matteekay]

7 hours ago, GOF said:

I do not know. On a local level, training like you and I went through  (with the state trainer) is non-existent... meaning they let any shooter who is sort of a regular shooter to be a SO. Doesn't work very well in my experience. I've shot some local Tier 1 matches and (being formally Certified, with the certificate) it was a zoo.

I have heard (maybe wrongly) that at state & regional matches they have a trainer who can hold classes and certify. But, I do not know.

I do suspect that if it costs Joyce a nickel to get a well-trained SO... she won't spend it.

 

Erm... might be regional? We have at least one SO trainer here and the class is a solid 8 hours.

[Zincwarrior]

I checked and technically there are nine in Texas. I don't know how many are actually active. Additionally if there's no support for them, the full costs are on the club/potential SO's. 

 

How does Run and Gun do it? 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

12 hours ago, Zincwarrior said:

How does Run and Gun do it? 

 

Do you mean USPSA?

[Zincwarrior]

Yes, sorry. I joke with the wife that USPSA is 'run and gun' and and IDPA is 'waddle and shoot.' Given my age and etc., I am definitely the waddle type now. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Zincwarrior

[Jim Watson]

I wondered, there is a Run n Gun organization promoting cross country movement, two gun shooting.

 

https://www.texasrunandgun.com

Edited August 22, 2022 by Jim Watson

[RePete]

37 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Yes, sorry. I joke with the wife that USPSA is 'run and gun' and and IDPA is 'waddle and shoot.' Given my age and etc., I am definitely the waddle type now. 

Too funny!

[Thomas H]

On 8/18/2022 at 7:49 AM, Zincwarrior said:

I remember the state trainers (thats how I did mine). I did not know that has changed. How does it work now? 

 

There aren't not necessarily "state" trainers---but there are people who are certified as SOIs (Safety Officer Instructors) in various areas.  There's process for it--you have to be a CSO, worked sanctioned matches, submit an application, etc, to get certified as an SOI.  (You can search the IDPA website for members with SOI certifications, just like searching for SOs and CSOs.)

 

Once you get the SOI certification, you get access to an SOI packet of information on how to run an SO class, with presentation files, handouts, etc. 

 

Club contacts can't just say "hey, I want to make this guy a Safety Officer" and have it magically happen.  People still have to go to SO classes, pass the test, pass the practical exercises, etc. 

 

(I don't know why anyone would think they don't.)

 

I do agree that in many places, there AREN'T local SOIs available.  I had to travel a distance to take my SO class, as did everyone else in my area.  We NOW (as of the last two months) have a local SOI (who is holding a class in October, so hopefully our number of local certified SOs is about to go up sharply) and SOIs are supposed to hold a class yearly.    (If there isn't interest, though, obviously that doesn't work out.)

 

The SOIs are not paid by IDPA HQ at all.  And they are not supposed to charge much of anything for the class, other than if they have travel expenses--so local SOIs are volunteering their time and work, for the most part.  If you have a local SOI, the class fee is probably about 90% range/classroom rental, 5% lunch (if provided for everyone), and 5% to the SOI to pay for the handouts and such he gives each student.

[Zincwarrior]

That seems kind of thankless...

[matteekay]

9 hours ago, Zincwarrior said:

That seems kind of thankless...

 

Welcome to any sort of match administration in the shooting sports. 

[Thomas H]

On 8/25/2022 at 2:18 PM, Zincwarrior said:

That seems kind of thankless...

 

On 8/25/2022 at 11:35 PM, matteekay said:

 

Welcome to any sort of match administration in the shooting sports. 

 

 

Pretty much. 

 

In USPSA, at least the RMIs get their hotel/travel/meals covered when they go teach classes.  It isn't like it is a paying job, though.   (Which is one of the reasons why not a lot of people go past the CRO level to get their RM cert, much less go for RMI.  It takes time and money, and it isn't like you get any of that back.)

 

Similarly, SOIs don't get any help (from what I can tell) from IDPA HQ with regard to holding classes, promoting classes, etc.  (Other than the set of electronic files for the classes, which come in PDF form.  If you want to make a PowerPoint presentation, you have to make your own.) 

 

As such, it doesn't surprise me that many SOIs stop doing it, because they don't get anything from it other than satisfaction that they are helping the sport (in exchange for all of the work doing it).  The SOI certification is separate from the SO or CSO certs, so if you stop being an SOI that doesn't change anything else.

 

It did surprise me that there was no place on the IDPA website that listed SO classes, and no place to advertise classes.  I plan on putting them up on Practiscore as events, so it'll be searchable in that manner, but that doesn't mean anyone else does it that way.  I tried doing a search on SO class just to see if I could find one anywhere.....couldn't really at all.

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

As such, it doesn't surprise me that many SOIs stop doing it, because they don't get anything from it other than satisfaction that they are helping the sport (in exchange for all of the work doing it). anywhere.....couldn't really at all.

 

And considering IDPA is a for profit business it makes it even harder to justify. At least in USPSA you're not working to put money in someone else's pocket. 

[Joe4d]

so MD , stage builders, stats folks, stage so/ro, cro, other staff that actually make events happen all supposed to volunteer time labor and money, but the big whigs expect a free vacation ?
Never understood why that is tolerated... Not just the shooting games either. Quite a few sports pull this "We are a volunteer org , but pay us money to get certified" game

 

[Boomstick303]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Never understood why that is tolerated... Not just the shooting games either. Quite a few sports pull this "We are a volunteer org , but pay us money to get certified" game

 

Like many hobbies its tolerated so we have a place to play.  If people did not volunteer their time to put matches on they would NOT happen.  Many hobbies that involve competition are formatted this way.  People volunteer so they themselves can participate.  Do organizations take advantage of this from time to time.  Absolutely, but the alternative is not having any format to participate in at all.  

 

In my area there were zero 2 Gun Matches.  I worked it out to be able to put on three 2 Gun Matches a year because I saw an interest by local shooters to participate in that format.  I did what was necessary to pull the thing together with the help from other entities and I get paid ZERO dollars to do so.  The reason.....   because I want to shoot 2 Gun.

 

No one forces anyone to volunteer or pay for anything to participate, but people need to keep in mind once too many people become consumers and there are not enough volunteers, then there will be no matches to participate in.   Something to think about.

 

 

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Like many hobbies its tolerated so we have a place to play.  If people did not volunteer their time to put matches on they would NOT happen.  

 

That's about it. I took over an IDPA match because the MD retired and I wanted to have a place to shoot.

 

Weirdly, it's cost me more money than I'd be paying in match fees to shoot other people's matches instead. I'm not ruling out the possibility that I'm just stupid.

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Like many hobbies its tolerated so we have a place to play.  If people did not volunteer their time to put matches on they would NOT happen.  Many hobbies that involve competition are formatted this way.  People volunteer so they themselves can participate.  Do organizations take advantage of this from time to time.  Absolutely, but the alternative is not having any format to participate in at all.  

 

In my area there were zero 2 Gun Matches.  I worked it out to be able to put on three 2 Gun Matches a year because I saw an interest by local shooters to participate in that format.  I did what was necessary to pull the thing together with the help from other entities and I get paid ZERO dollars to do so.  The reason.....   because I want to shoot 2 Gun.

 

No one forces anyone to volunteer or pay for anything to participate, but people need to keep in mind once too many people become consumers and there are not enough volunteers, then there will be no matches to participate in.   Something to think about.

 

 

Think you guys completely missed my point.
I know alot of these sports the people making it happen on the ground are volunteers and tend to spend alot out of pocket for love of the game and a sense of accomplishment.
My problem is with the national organization which IS taking in money,, expects these same volunteers to PAY in money travel and time to get certified, qualified, or what not to make the sport happen.. While generally the higher ups doing the class expects to be paid or the organization uses it as a profit point.
These orgs do have a budget as well as an elected Board..
Running big events takes alot. Someone willing to step up and make it happen should have the collective membership (IE the ORG) foot the bill for what ever training they need.
I really dont think that is too much to expect.
 

[Zincwarrior]

16 hours ago, Thomas H said:

It did surprise me that there was no place on the IDPA website that listed SO classes, and no place to advertise classes.  I plan on putting them up on Practiscore as events, so it'll be searchable in that manner, but that doesn't mean anyone else does it that way.  I tried doing a search on SO class just to see if I could find one anywhere.....couldn't really at all.

That is a very good point. They could easily list them along with matches on the match search page. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Think you guys completely missed my point.
I know alot of these sports the people making it happen on the ground are volunteers and tend to spend alot out of pocket for love of the game and a sense of accomplishment.
My problem is with the national organization which IS taking in money,, expects these same volunteers to PAY in money travel and time to get certified, qualified, or what not to make the sport happen.. While generally the higher ups doing the class expects to be paid or the organization uses it as a profit point.
These orgs do have a budget as well as an elected Board..
Running big events takes alot. Someone willing to step up and make it happen should have the collective membership (IE the ORG) foot the bill for what ever training they need.
I really dont think that is too much to expect.
 

 

USPSA is a non profit organization and has a elected BOD who isn't supposed to be making any money. The money we're paying is supposed to help run the org and fund nationals.

 

IDPA doesn't have a BOD, it's for profit company owned by Joyce. If the company doesn't make a profit, it'll go away. That's kind of the point of companies. 

[Joe4d]

Qualified officials that can do a good job is part of running the organization. Should be part of the budget to run some training every so often and not charge people willing to step up to keep the game going.  

[Boomstick303]

On 9/8/2022 at 6:46 AM, Joe4d said:

These orgs do have a budget as well as an elected Board..

 

I agree with some of the points you are making but until board members are held accountable for their actions , meaning they are voted out nothing changes (this includes budgets).  

 

Also, some are fine with the current system which is why we find ourselves in the current situation.  I intend to become an RM at some point down the road.  I can either accept the current system and obtain my goals, or I can abstain from giving any more time or energy into this venture based on the current system.  Either way the choice is mine.  

 

The bigger issue to create change is the ridiculously small amount of the membership that even understands what is going on in regards to issues like these.  Even if they did I do not think they care enough to create any amount of change.  Most shooters treat matches as a social event and are 100% consumers.   

 

 

 

[Thomas H]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:11 PM, Joe4d said:

Qualified officials that can do a good job is part of running the organization. Should be part of the budget to run some training every so often and not charge people willing to step up to keep the game going.  

 

Any time there is a "should" in a comment, it means "this is my opinion regarding what other people owe."

 

So the question becomes, what about your opinion will convince a for-profit IDPA?  Is the company able to make money doing what it is doing now?  Are there long-term problems that will show up if they keep doing it this way?  How much money will it cost the company to pay for the changes that you want, and is that amount of cost worth any difference it might make in the long run?

 

WE want a sport that is run well, with match officials who know what they are doing, in a consistent fashion across the sports. 

 

The company wants to make money.

 

What in this situation will make the company interested in paying for something they aren't currently paying for now?

 

(I'll note that I'm a USPSA RO, CRO, and RM, along with being an ICORE RO, and an IDPA SO, CSO, and SOI.  Obviously, I'd like the sport to continue and get better, with trained match officials.)