Cutting shooters slack

[IVC]

5 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Be kind and sensitive.

Kind - sure. Sensitive - um, err, well.... 

[IVC]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

they are somewhat subjective, but imho the RO should be able to clearly articulate and demonstrate (with certainty) exactly what he saw. If he can't do that, is he really 100% sure? Every time I've dq'd someone i've been able to show them exactly what happened and what it looked like, and there was no doubt.

The last guy I DQ-ed was a newby in a structure where he had to retreat. He pointed the gun into the sky and turned around to run up-range. 

 

Nobody gets a break for these types of violations by me or by anyone in my local club. It's the other technical things that new shooters don't know, such as using the safe table to load magazines because other tables are full of other peoples' stuff (not handling the gun, just using it as a regular table). 

[ima45dv8]

57 minutes ago, IVC said:

Fair enough - I'd let him shoot at L1 even though it's bending/breaking the rules. It's not a safety violation, it's a protocol violation. By "safety violation" I mean a "gun safety violation independent of specific shooting sport." 

Thank you.

 

I've done what Moto said and gave a quick "Make Ready", and once I was fast enough to catch the shooters hand before the gun was fully drawn. I wrapped my hand over theirs and helped them reseat the gun. Then I quietly explained the situation because they didn't know any better. They made the correct mental adjustment and AFAIK, it hasn't happened again. 

[IHAVEGAS]

52 minutes ago, Sandbagger123 said:

180 calls are many times subjective .

 

? Either you are sure or you are not. I expect you agree with that sentiment and I just do not understand what you meant. 

[RJH]

If you don't tape & reset I'm a lot stricter on my 180 and Trigger DQ's. 160 degrees starts looking a lot more like a hundred and eighty-five

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Sandbagger123 said:

the trigger outside unless aiming rule is vague.  So if i am transitioning between a target array 3 feet apart , do i need the finger outside? if the answer is yes, then an over zelous RO could probably D/Q half the squad.   

 

The answer is yes if you are not literally aiming at a visible target while moving.  If you are aiming at a visible target and shoot it after five steps, no.

[zzt]

double tap.

Edited August 20, 2020 by zzt

[zzt]

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

If you don't tape & reset I'm a lot stricter on my 180 and Trigger DQ's. 160 degrees starts looking a lot more like a hundred and eighty-five

 

Then you shouldn't RO.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Then you shouldn't RO.

Nah, you just should tape

[regor]

4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

We looked at our matches for the last several years and there is a 40% chance a new shooter will only shoot 1 match , I doubt we have enough info to figure out if getting DQed in the first few matches affects this in any meaningful way, but I know I DQed at my first match and I came back and the DQ never registered in my mind as a reason not to.

 

This is definitely thread creep, but it would be interesting to see this info on a nation wide scale. Of the handful of DQs I've issued to new/fairly new shooters I don't think I have seen any of them back. It definitely does seem that conversion of new shooters is low, I wouldn't be shocked if it was <50%, although a lot of them seem to have already paid for membership going into their first match (I know I did). I think there are a variety of things that contribute to that, but that's outside the scope of this thread. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, regor said:

 

This is definitely thread creep, but it would be interesting to see this info on a nation wide scale. Of the handful of DQs I've issued to new/fairly new shooters I don't think I have seen any of them back. It definitely does seem that conversion of new shooters is low, I wouldn't be shocked if it was <50%, although a lot of them seem to have already paid for membership going into their first match (I know I did). I think there are a variety of things that contribute to that, but that's outside the scope of this thread. 

The way I look at it is, if you can't handle the penalties for your actions you are probably in the wrong game. 

The ones that get mad and don't come back are not a loss. 

 

 

[ima45dv8]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

The ones that get mad and don't come back are not a loss. 

I have to agree.

Like I said, this isn't for everyone.

[motosapiens]

18 hours ago, zzt said:

 

The answer is yes if you are not literally aiming at a visible target while moving.  If you are aiming at a visible target and shoot it after five steps, no.

where in the rules does it say something about 'visible'? I must have missed that. Just last matched I activated a swinger and was moving, finger on the trigger, waiting for it to appear.

[zzt]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

where in the rules does it say something about 'visible'? I must have missed that. Just last matched I activated a swinger and was moving, finger on the trigger, waiting for it to appear.

 

By visible I mean you cannot be 'aiming' at a target behind a wall while moving with your finger on the trigger.  What you did is perfectly legal.

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

By visible I mean you cannot be 'aiming' at a target behind a wall while moving with your finger on the trigger.  What you did is perfectly legal.

why not? what part of the rule forbids that? I see top shooters doing it routinely, ready to shoot as soon as the target is available.

 

realistically, i don't think you can pretend to be aiming while moving 20' down a wall with the gun up, but certainly in the last few feet it is normal to have the gun up where the target is going to appear in another step or two.

Edited August 21, 2020 by motosapiens

[-JCN-]

20 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

By visible I mean you cannot be 'aiming' at a target behind a wall while moving with your finger on the trigger.  What you did is perfectly legal.

What about shooting on the move with targets on either side of barrels. It’s more than a straight transition and might take two steps. You might be pre-aimed through the barrel so you can break the shot right as it comes into view. 

[MikeBurgess]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

where in the rules does it say something about 'visible'? I must have missed that. Just last matched I activated a swinger and was moving, finger on the trigger, waiting for it to appear.

According to NROI yes the target has to be available for movement with finger on trigger, or at least they sort of say that but not very clearly.

 

Posted on July 20, 2019

This is a common question from ROs at matches where the walls are very transparent. And the short answer is yes, as long as your finger is outside the trigger guard. But 10.5.8 says competitors can have their finger on the trigger while moving as long as they are aiming at targets. Yes, it does say that, but since walls are hardcover, the targets aren’t available to engage through the wall. So, you can aim at them, but you can’t shoot them so your finger needs to be off the trigger. This is a separate issue from putting a firearm around a wall or through a port and looking through the wall at the sights/dot/laser 

[motosapiens]

silly, and not what the rules actually say.  literally every good shooter does this.

[zzt]

22 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

What about shooting on the move with targets on either side of barrels. It’s more than a straight transition and might take two steps. You might be pre-aimed through the barrel so you can break the shot right as it comes into view. 

 

In your scenario the first step is legal according to the rules and with the second step the target is visible and you shoot it.  No foul.  However if you had to take three or four steps your finger should be outside the trigger bar.  That is how I was taught.  8.5.1 and A3 Movement are pretty specific.  I will say that I rarely see the safety engaged.  I engage it on a long run, especially if moving uprange.  Not many do.

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

silly, and not what the rules actually say.  literally every good shooter does this.

Agreed, I actually had to delete some smart ass comments I was going to make about how the answer doesn't make sense and actually their description of the answer fits the rules exception by saying you can aim through the wall, then goes on to contradict it. 

 

I would like to suggest that if someone is going to get paid by the org to perform any rules based communication they should be able to make a logic based argument and clearly explain their interpretations in a way that makes sense with the rules as written. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bagellord]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:39 PM, RJH said:

Nah, you just should tape

 

No, you should not touch the timer or the tablet if you can't remain objective when you are ROing someone. I don't give a damn who I am running, I set everything else aside during the course of fire so I can focus on being fair and safe.

[RJH]

57 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

No, you should not touch the timer or the tablet if you can't remain objective when you are ROing someone. I don't give a damn who I am running, I set everything else aside during the course of fire so I can focus on being fair and safe.

 

 

You sound like a non taper...... Better stay well within the 160

[18111811]

This is how you scare people away from the sport.  There has to be some sort of leeway with a new shorter on procedural, not safety violations, to help them learn and not make them say this isn't for them.  If you scare away newcomers the sport dies over time.

 

I remember when I was stationed at Bragg and started shooting skeet on the MWR site up in Spring Lake and going to NC matches.  Aside from one female around my age, I was close to 20 years younger than the next closest competitor.  Skeet is a dying sport, and these old timers knew it, so they went out of their way to make me feel welcomed and gave me advice, old Mec Presses, shell bags, etc, and encouragement so that I kept coming back.  Not only did I enjhoy myself, but I felt like part of the family and their unsolicited gear donations helped me save a bunch of money.  If I had a s#!tty experience at my first or first few matches, I would've stopped attending the local matches who then would've lost 50% of the under 25 crowd.

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, 18111811 said:

This is how you scare people away from the sport.  There has to be some sort of leeway with a new shorter on procedural, not safety violations, to help them learn and not make them say this isn't for them.  If you scare away newcomers the sport dies over time.

 

I remember when I was stationed at Bragg and started shooting skeet on the MWR site up in Spring Lake and going to NC matches.  Aside from one female around my age, I was close to 20 years younger than the next closest competitor.  Skeet is a dying sport, and these old timers knew it, so they went out of their way to make me feel welcomed and gave me advice, old Mec Presses, shell bags, etc, and encouragement so that I kept coming back.  Not only did I enjhoy myself, but I felt like part of the family and their unsolicited gear donations helped me save a bunch of money.  If I had a s#!tty experience at my first or first few matches, I would've stopped attending the local matches who then would've lost 50% of the under 25 crowd.

Procedurals don't matter cause newbs ain't winning anyway. Safety matters and if someone, new or not, does a DQable offense they should be done. 

 

But, that doesn't mean you that you have to be a jackass.  Give advice and extra gear, etc., but follow the rules

[davsco]

let's face it, some of our rules aren't super-intuitive.  whipping out your pistol with the RO beside you before he says make ready but after everyone is behind the shooter isn't actually unsafe.  nor is taking off holster with gun in it by the john nor is 185 degrees if no one is near that line.  one reason a new shooter class or even a half hour intro session before their first match is a great idea.  and telling newbies to ask questions if unsure isn't the best sole practice as they don't know what they don't know.