Cutting shooters slack

[AverageJoeShooting]

12 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

This will sound mean spirited , and I do not mean it to, but I hate going to a club match where there are any r.o.'s that think like that. If you see a safety rule violation, and you are certain of the right call I want you to make that call.

When enforcing the safety rules is soft or inconsistent I think it makes things less safe for everyone, it creates hard feelings for the folks that do get dq'd, and it makes life hard on the r.o.'s who are trying to follow the rules.

unless its a very obvious breaking of the 180 im just going to give them a warning.  If they are facing backwards and holding the muzzle of the loaded gun at the crowd then yea ill dq, but up until that point i give the shooter the benefit and a warning.  I think a dq should be witnessed by at least two people anyway.  I know there is certainly not enough people at a local match to make that happen, but more than once it has happened where i got dqed off something someone thought they saw when no one else saw it.  I even went back on video after and confirmed that it didnt happen.  would you rather just get dqed and not shoot a match because some idiot RO has an axe to grind?  when its other people its easy to say dq. when you are the one getting dqed over s#!t that doesnt exist because the RO is an idiot its a different story

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

ok i mean i guess throwing dqs works for you.  when im the RO im not trying to send someone home.  IF they are pointing their loaded gun at others and its very clear that has happened ill throw the dq, but it does no good to just dq a new shooter.  That does nothing. in the 20 years i have of shooting behind my back ive never had any incident on any range with any shooter.  I have been dqed a few times for stupid s#!t, but several of those times it was just because an RO had a chip on his shoulder and wanted to know what it feels like to send people home.  im not saying every incident isnt dq worthy, but coming to a match with the mindset of sending someone home is really just an a_-hole RO move

 

I'm not trying to DQ people either, but as you said the PCC shooter had his gun out and held horizontal while people were downrange. If that's not a clear DQ I don't know what is. 

 

We don't need people like you giving people a break for doing obviously DQ-able stuff, because then those people never learn proper gun handling and will eventually do something worse. 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

in the 20 years i have of shooting behind my back ive never had any incident on any range with any shooter. 

I wish I'd had your luck. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

unless its a very obvious breaking of the 180 im just going to give them a warning.  If they are facing backwards and holding the muzzle of the loaded gun at the crowd then yea ill dq, but up until that point i give the shooter the benefit and a warning.  I think a dq should be witnessed by at least two people anyway.  I know there is certainly not enough people at a local match to make that happen, but more than once it has happened where i got dqed off something someone thought they saw when no one else saw it.  I even went back on video after and confirmed that it didnt happen.  would you rather just get dqed and not shoot a match because some idiot RO has an axe to grind?  when its other people its easy to say dq. when you are the one getting dqed over s#!t that doesnt exist because the RO is an idiot its a different story

You're just flat wrong on so many points. I will DQ a new shooter in an instant if he is putting the rest of us at risk. I could not care less if he ever returns. I'm not interested in how many shooters we can draw to matches. I'm not in marketing. And I believe I have read posts like this from you before. You seem to have a real problem with RO's. I guess it's because they have DQ'ed you so many times. I have seen really s#!tty RO's that didn't know the rules but I have never seen one who's mission in life was to send people home for no reason. I also am on record as strongly disagreeing with warnings such as finger, muzzle etc. If somebody has their finger in the trigger guard one could argue thats not a huge deal. But if they trip and fall or just bang a wall really hard the gun will most likely go off. And that is unacceptable.

[JimmyZip]

I have refused to return to a match that I saw was unsafe. The culture of safety in different clubs becomes obvious when you start shooting outside of your home club. Just another thing to think about. 
If I see people being unsafe without being called, frankly I get nervous. Ask my friends, I’m not the nervous type.

[stick]

17 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

 

To the OP's question about letting certain things "Slide" for newer shooters, I have seen that happen while others were ROing them. But over time all that does is delay the inevitable. If the shooter can't keep their finger outside of the trigger guard while attempting to clear a jam that behavior is going to continue until they get a wake up call by being DQed. By letting it slide all you do is allow that same poor safety behavior to continue in future matches. In the long run its better for these shooters to learn these safety lessons early in the game vs allowing bad habits to continue to get ingrained. If that means getting DQed, then so be it. 

 

I agree with Big Panda!  I can speak from experience that letting them slide is the wrong thing to do.  Many years ago, in a IDPA match, I was the SO and  I was almost shot by someone trying to clear a jam. He had his finger close to the trigger guard. Think about that the next time you let someone slide.

[AverageJoeShooting]

6 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

I'm not trying to DQ people either, but as you said the PCC shooter had his gun out and held horizontal while people were downrange. If that's not a clear DQ I don't know what is. 

 

We don't need people like you giving people a break for doing obviously DQ-able stuff, because then those people never learn proper gun handling and will eventually do something worse. 

i mean he did learn though because it didnt happen again the rest of the match. 

[AverageJoeShooting]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

You're just flat wrong on so many points. I will DQ a new shooter in an instant if he is putting the rest of us at risk. I could not care less if he ever returns. I'm not interested in how many shooters we can draw to matches. I'm not in marketing. And I believe I have read posts like this from you before. You seem to have a real problem with RO's. I guess it's because they have DQ'ed you so many times. I have seen really s#!tty RO's that didn't know the rules but I have never seen one who's mission in life was to send people home for no reason. I also am on record as strongly disagreeing with warnings such as finger, muzzle etc. If somebody has their finger in the trigger guard one could argue thats not a huge deal. But if they trip and fall or just bang a wall really hard the gun will most likely go off. And that is unacceptable.

i mean if the gun goes off outside the shooters area, thats a dq anyway.  Im not against Ros, Im against ones that dont know the rules and then call things they didnt actually see. if you cant clearly see the one or two degrees that broke the 180 then you shouldnt call it. obviously if the person has clearly turned around or the muzzle is clearing pointing backwards while their running a stage then its obviously a dq. 

 

When an RO calls a dq and then i go back on my wide angel video and clearly never see the muzzle break the 180, thats what im against

[zzt]

I think there is a consensus here, at least among those with no axe to grind.  It is:  if you clearly see an infraction eligible for a penalty or a DQ, you call it no matter who the shooter is.  If you are not certain, you don't.

 

Regarding warnings during the COF:  I have given them in situations where the shooter is concentrating on something other than gun safety, such as clearing a jam, etc.  Then I will say finger or muzzle if it looks like the shooter is coming close to something that will result in a DQ.  Sarge has me rethinking that again.

 

Regarding warnings after the COF:  if I see a 'maybe', but I'm not sure, I let it go.  After Range is Safe I'll tell the shooter what I saw and warn them of the possible consequences.  Almost all of them thank me for it.

[zzt]

sorry. did not use the new edit function.

Edited August 20, 2020 by zzt

[ima45dv8]

I've used warnings at L1 matches a number of times, but at a L2 or above I leave them in the truck.

[MikeBurgess]

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

I will DQ a new shooter in an instant if he is putting the rest of us at risk. I could not care less if he ever returns. I'm not interested in how many shooters we can draw to matches. I'm not in marketing.

 

I have seen really s#!tty RO's that didn't know the rules but I have never seen one who's mission in life was to send people home for no reason. 

I agree with both points, I will even go as far as saying I will DQ a new shooter any time I am sure they earned it period, just like anyone else.

 

 We looked at our matches for the last several years and there is a 40% chance a new shooter will only shoot 1 match , I doubt we have enough info to figure out if getting DQed in the first few matches affects this in any meaningful way, but I know I DQed at my first match and I came back and the DQ never registered in my mind as a reason not to.

 

[zzt]

13 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I doubt we have enough info to figure out if getting DQed in the first few matches affects this in any meaningful way

 

I don't either, but I'll bet it is high.  I've had to DQ a first time shooter twice for obvious safety violations, and neither came back.  One turned to his buddy and said "I don't like this.  Too many rules".

[ima45dv8]

I remember one new, enthusiastic shooter I was running on a stage that had you open a door to access the back part of the stage. While reading the walkthrough we emphasized the need to be mindful of your muzzle and not sweep yourself. When he got to the line a little later I even reminded him again before I gave MR. Sure enough, I had to stop him.

 

Never saw him again. And I'm fine with that. 

 

This activity isn't for everyone and I don't want to see it dumbed-down just to get attendance numbers up.

[MikeBurgess]

44 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I don't either, but I'll bet it is high.  I've had to DQ a first time shooter twice for obvious safety violations, and neither came back.  One turned to his buddy and said "I don't like this.  Too many rules".

well someone that doesn't like "too many rules" is not going to like USPSA, DQ or not, and is unlikely to be a good fit for the sport. 

 

[Mcfoto]

I’ve DQed a new shooter and he stormed off leaving two buddies - also new - who managed to to finish the match. I haven’t seen any of them back.

 

The worse new shooter DQ I witnessed was on his first stage. Uprange start. We all explained how to turn and draw and he got to see the rest of the squad do it. His turn comes and he draws then turns. Went home without firing a shot.

[IVC]

Again, I would agree with all of the above examples of DQ-s of first time shooters - that's not questionable, I believe.

 

Here is a specific question. First time shooter, first stage, you're next to him and about to give him "make ready," but he starts pulling the gun out of the holster. You can see the trigger clear the holster, but the muzzle is not out and you tell him to stop and put it back which he immediately does. You explain that he has to wait for "make ready," he responds that he didn't know that and that he won't do it again, then you __________________. (?)

[ima45dv8]

8 minutes ago, IVC said:

Again, I would agree with all of the above examples of DQ-s of first time shooters - that's not questionable, I believe.

 

Here is a specific question. First time shooter, first stage, you're next to him and about to give him "make ready," but he starts pulling the gun out of the holster. You can see the trigger clear the holster, but the muzzle is not out and you tell him to stop and put it back which he immediately does. You explain that he has to wait for "make ready," he responds that he didn't know that and that he won't do it again, then you __________________. (?)

You brought up this very specific scenario, so you go first.

What would you do?

[IVC]

Fair enough - I'd let him shoot at L1 even though it's bending/breaking the rules. It's not a safety violation, it's a protocol violation. By "safety violation" I mean a "gun safety violation independent of specific shooting sport." 

[motosapiens]

On 8/19/2020 at 11:42 AM, IVC said:

Agreed, except we don't have dedicated classes or ROs to do this - we have usually over a 100 shooters at local matches and the usual process is to assign a new shooter to the experienced squad where everyone is an RO, then get them up to speed and watch them during the match. Every time they shoot, we remind the RO running the clock that it's the first time shooter so we all make sure we pay extra attention. 

 

Is this the best? Don't know, it's just how it works here... Don't shoot the messenger. 

we pretty much do that too, but we also pull the new guys aside for a separate 10 minute or so briefing first, to cover things like cold range, 180 rule, range commands, tape and reset expectations, etc....

[Sandbagger123]

i don't cut anyone slack when it comes to safety issues.  i have found its mostly the new or newer shooters that have issues. i shoot mostly in the local area and know most of the shooters.  When there is a unfamiliar face i ask them if they are new. if they answer yes,  i ask them if there are any questions i can answer before i start them.  i also try to explain what constitutes the beginning of the course and the end.  You will be surprised how many don't know that .   

 

180 calls are many times subjective .  if called for 180 the RO word is god and no arb on it.  its a good and bad in that the RO can give a bad D/Q with no recourse.  on the other hand ,  if a 180 was arguable then we would be there all day. Just have to trust that the RO knows what they are doing and is eithical.

 

the trigger outside unless aiming rule is vague.  So if i am transitioning between a target array 3 feet apart , do i need the finger outside? if the answer is yes, then an over zelous RO could probably D/Q half the squad.   

 

I have D/Q people and they were 100%  good calls .  unless i am sure, its shut up unless i am.  

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

34 minutes ago, IVC said:

Again, I would agree with all of the above examples of DQ-s of first time shooters - that's not questionable, I believe.

 

Here is a specific question. First time shooter, first stage, you're next to him and about to give him "make ready," but he starts pulling the gun out of the holster. You can see the trigger clear the holster, but the muzzle is not out and you tell him to stop and put it back which he immediately does. You explain that he has to wait for "make ready," he responds that he didn't know that and that he won't do it again, then you __________________. (?)

just give him make ready right then, quick like a bunny, and save everyone some trouble. 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Sandbagger123 said:

 

180 calls are many times subjective .  if called for 180 the RO word is god and no arb on it.  its a good and bad in that the RO can give a bad D/Q with no recourse.  on the other hand ,  if a 180 was arguable then we would be there all day. Just have to trust that the RO knows what they are doing and is eithical.

 

 

they are somewhat subjective, but imho the RO should be able to clearly articulate and demonstrate (with certainty) exactly what he saw. If he can't do that, is he really 100% sure? Every time I've dq'd someone i've been able to show them exactly what happened and what it looked like, and there was no doubt.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

The worse new shooter DQ I witnessed was on his first stage. Uprange start. We all explained how to turn and draw and he got to see the rest of the squad do it. His turn comes and he draws then turns. Went home without firing a shot.

I had a very experienced shooter do this at a section match. I was literally standing right in front of him looking at him to make it even more obvious that you have to turn first. somewhat funny in retrospect.

[-JCN-]

Note: you can DQ someone without coming across like a power trippy jerk. 
 

I got DQ’d in one of my first matches and the guy was apologetic and the MD came by and told me he hoped I’d be back and that we have to keep it safe. 
 

I probably wouldn’t have ever shown up for another match if I was RO’d by some of the people here!

 

Be kind and sensitive. It’ll get the safety message across better than being a jerk anyway, regardless of DQ or not DQ.