Cutting shooters slack

[IVC]

As expected, this deteriorated into "you're letting shooters get away with safety violations" instead of "how certain can you be that a safety violation has occurred when you suspect it did..."

[Lastcat]

4 minutes ago, IVC said:

As expected, this deteriorated into "you're letting shooters get away with safety violations" instead of "how certain can you be that a safety violation has occurred when you suspect it did..."

 

As always. zzt was just trying to bring up certain scenarios that we might run into and how would "you" handle them. Let's not toss anyone in the firey pits. We are better than that.

[IVC]

At Level 1 matches new shooters show up all the time. They usually don't know all the protocols and are learning along the way. They are not breaking *gun handling* safety rules even if they mess up the protocol the first time they are doing something. It's not reckless or ignorant, it's the lack of knowledge of the safety protocol, something they quickly learn. 

 

Do you DQ a guy on his first match if he takes the belt off with magazines in it at the safe table as he is trying to adjust it? Do you nail him for pulling the gun out of holster at the incorrect time, but while under RO supervision? Or do you tell him how it works and never ever have the same issue again? 

[Diver123]

Removing your belt at the safe table is legal as long as the magazines stay in their carriers on your belt. Pull the gun out before make ready DQ. No exception. Someone could be behind  a barrel taping. The RO needs to be the one clearing the range and then giving the make ready command. This tells me the shooter isnt listening for range commands. Next one he ignores could be stop.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Diver123

[IHAVEGAS]

39 minutes ago, IVC said:

Do you DQ a guy on his first match if he takes the belt off with magazines in it at the safe table as he is trying to adjust it? Do you nail him for pulling the gun out of holster at the incorrect time, but while under RO supervision? Or do you tell him how it works and never ever have the same issue again? 

 

Why dq when 100% sure of a safety violation is covered so far I think.

 

Is there any why not besides that the person might decide that the sport is not for them? Is there anyone who thinks they would have quit the sport if they had earned a righteous dq at their first match? 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

Both. Close calls or possible violations may be seen, but the RO can't be 100% sure. Also violations may be entirely missed due the RO's view being blocked. I had it happen this last weekend.  a newer shooter got awfully close to the 180 when he had a malfunction while shooting a target to the side. it's possible he could have broken the 180, but I couldn't tell for sure from the side I was on, so I pulled him aside after scoring and advised him to be more mindful.  No way could I have called a dq with the necessary certainty.

So not let slide, just less able to be in position to be 100% sure, I totally agree with that and with counsel for those that don't meet the 100% threshold

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

At Level 1 matches new shooters show up all the time. They usually don't know all the protocols and are learning along the way. They are not breaking *gun handling* safety rules even if they mess up the protocol the first time they are doing something. It's not reckless or ignorant, it's the lack of knowledge of the safety protocol, something they quickly learn. 

 

Do you DQ a guy on his first match if he takes the belt off with magazines in it at the safe table as he is trying to adjust it? Do you nail him for pulling the gun out of holster at the incorrect time, but while under RO supervision? Or do you tell him how it works and never ever have the same issue again? 

 

this is something we handle by giving a new shooter's briefing before the match starts. If they do something dumb before then (like show up with a loaded gun, or whatever), I can't really blame them too much, but after one of our experienced RO's goes over the safety rules, and stresses that they should ask someone if they are ever in doubt, I think it's fair to treat them like grownups.

[MikeBurgess]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

this is something we handle by giving a new shooter's briefing before the match starts. If they do something dumb before then (like show up with a loaded gun, or whatever), I can't really blame them too much, but after one of our experienced RO's goes over the safety rules, and stresses that they should ask someone if they are ever in doubt, I think it's fair to treat them like grownups.

Very well said

[IVC]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

this is something we handle by giving a new shooter's briefing before the match starts. If they do something dumb before then (like show up with a loaded gun, or whatever), I can't really blame them too much, but after one of our experienced RO's goes over the safety rules, and stresses that they should ask someone if they are ever in doubt, I think it's fair to treat them like grownups.

Agreed, except we don't have dedicated classes or ROs to do this - we have usually over a 100 shooters at local matches and the usual process is to assign a new shooter to the experienced squad where everyone is an RO, then get them up to speed and watch them during the match. Every time they shoot, we remind the RO running the clock that it's the first time shooter so we all make sure we pay extra attention. 

 

Is this the best? Don't know, it's just how it works here... Don't shoot the messenger. 

[IVC]

As a side issue, anyone here ever seen a safety violation *without* running to the RM to force a DQ? Why or why not? 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

This is getting a little off track. 

You’ve been around long enough to know which tangent a post like this will take, well before it reaches page two.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

This is getting a little off track. 

You’ve been around long enough to know which tangent a post like this will take, well before it reaches page two.

 

[RJH]

For everyone who says, "well, they may not know"  

 

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had a magic device they could hold in their hand and ask for rules and they would pop up.......oh, wait ...

 

If you are big enough to run with guns, you are big enough to know the rules, quit coddling people. IDGAF if it is their first match or not, do dumb stuff, win dumb prizes. And yes i have sent people home on their first match, some came back and some didn't.  What i do see is that when newbs get a pass, they invariably do more dangerous crap later, cause they still didn't take the time to read the rules. 

 

 

[regor]

I try to avoid using anything but the official range commands when communicating with the shooter until the COF is complete. If I notice they are doing something questionable that could get them a DQ in certain circumstances (e.g. flicking the mag out on a reload, which would cause them to break the 180 if they were shooting close to the 180 already, or not squaring down range to unload and show clear) then I will say something to them after they have made safe. If they commit a DQ-able offense during the COF and I am certain it happened then I issue a DQ. It's the shooter's job to ensure they follow the rules, it's the RO's job to ensure accountability when the rules are broken. 

 

As to the drawing a pistol before "Make Ready", I actually did this in one of my first matches; the RO said "Range is hot", which I misconstrued with "Make Ready" and drew. There were multiple ROs in the squad and they decided not to issue a DQ because the RO running the timer used unofficial commands.Looking back at that situation now, as an RO, I understand their decision because a shooter would probably win an appeal to the MD, however I think that calling over the MD is the correct way to handle that. "I think the MD would overturn this" is not sufficient reason to not issue a DQ. In a more cut and dry case like the shooter drawing or tabling a gun when not under the ROs supervision then a DQ should absolutely be issued. As a shooter, if you are unclear if you are under Make Ready, just ask and stay out of the start position until you are sure. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zzt]

3 hours ago, shred said:

So you are ok with a shooter with a loaded gun and finger inside the trigger guard such that any triggering of his startle reflex (tripping on a rock or whatever) will fire a shot,

 

You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.  Reread the op.  I was talking about gray areas, as in maybe his finger was; maybe it wasn't, and you are just not sure.  If I'm not certain, I don't call it.  I was also commenting on how new ROs seem quicker to DQ.

 

I'll give you two examples.  One is the first one I listed.  On neither occasion was I sure the shooter's bent finger actually was inside the trigger guard.  A new RO would likely have called it because the finger was not clearly out, pointing straight along the slide pointing toward the muzzle. I warned him about the consequences if it were.  He didn't repeat it.  On another occasion the same thing happened and I warned the shooter.  The difference is the third time he did it, I WAS sure and DQ'd him.

[MHicks]

I'm very careful to make sure the make ready command has been given. I don't hear well and have asked to make sure that the command has been given instead of just something like step into the starting area.

[JFlowers]

The whole "Make Ready" issue can be tough.  Especially when shooters are heavily plugged and there is a lot of other conversations around.  I try hard to make sure that the shooter is aware that I am communicating with them as opposed to someone else (the the guy slowly walking back uprange from pasting) or an outside conversation.

 

As for Safety DQs, that is a no tolerance issue.  We play with toys that can make a silly mistake into a deadly one way too quickly.

[RJH]

So I went back and reread the o p just because. No I have not noticed New ROs DQing people for things they're not 100% sure they did. They might catch things that other ROs have let slide though.

 

 

Also sounds to me like you should have been dq'd on your first match. There's nothing saying that the RO must only speak the range commands. Matter of fact there's rules stating the opposite

[IHAVEGAS]

28 minutes ago, RJH said:

So I went back and reread the o p just because. No I have not noticed New ROs DQing people for things they're not 100% sure they did.

 

I have seen it two or three times with 180 calls, once was on me (right handed, moving back and to my left while reloading, r.o. behind and to my right, he could not see the gun and it wasn't even close to a 180 or even a 140 but he called what his mind saw through my back). 

 

If I am shooting under a new r.o. I will exaggerate holding the gun out where he/she can see it, they see you moving toward the weak side while reloading and they get excited. 

[regor]

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also sounds to me like you should have been dq'd on your first match. 

 

I agree with you that I should have been DQ'd in that match, and the MD should have been called. But I still think the MD would have overturned it because the RO used non-approved range commands that caused confusion.

 

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

There's nothing saying that the RO must only speak the range commands. Matter of fact there's rules stating the opposite

 

What rule are you referencing? There are very clearly defined approved range commands to be used when communicating with the shooter (8.3), and the only mention therein of non-approved commands is that the RO can issue interim commands between strings of fire (8.3.6.1), or issue safety warnings (8.6.1). 

 

ROs have a responsibility to be clear and concise with shooters and not cause any confusion. Issuing commands other than approved commands can and will cause confusion and should be considered by the MD in assessing a DQ. There is clearly some subjectivity there, but as a narrower example, suppose the first thing I say to a shooter is "Ready?" If they draw, it should technically be a DQ, but any reasonable person recognizes that it would be very easy to mistake that on a loud range and as such the DQ should be overturned by the MD. My actual experience is in a more grey area, but in my opinion would still warrant overturning. Of course, you can argue that the approved commands only apply to the COF, which doesn't start until "Make Ready", but ROs should share some accountability if their commands lead to unsafe behavior, just as sweeping the RO can be overturned by the MD as RO interference (which is not a defined term in the glossary, so you could argue this scenario is also a case of RO interference).

 

At the end of the day all of this is easily avoided if you stick to only using approved commands from when the shooter steps up for their turn until the Range is Clear command. Other than clarifying shooters' questions about the COF or start position there is no need to have additional communication. 

 

 

[ima45dv8]

1 minute ago, regor said:

 

I agree with you that I should have been DQ'd in that match, and the MD should have been called. But I still think the MD would have overturned it because the RO used non-approved range commands that caused confusion.

 

 

What rule are you referencing? There are very clearly defined approved range commands to be used when communicating with the shooter (8.3), and the only mention therein of non-approved commands is that the RO can issue interim commands between strings of fire (8.3.6.1), or issue safety warnings (8.6.1). 

 

ROs have a responsibility to be clear and concise with shooters and not cause any confusion. Issuing commands other than approved commands can and will cause confusion and should be considered by the MD in assessing a DQ. There is clearly some subjectivity there, but as a narrower example, suppose the first thing I say to a shooter is "Ready?" If they draw, it should technically be a DQ, but any reasonable person recognizes that it would be very easy to mistake that on a loud range and as such the DQ should be overturned by the MD. My actual experience is in a more grey area, but in my opinion would still warrant overturning. Of course, you can argue that the approved commands only apply to the COF, which doesn't start until "Make Ready", but ROs should share some accountability if their commands lead to unsafe behavior, just as sweeping the RO can be overturned by the MD as RO interference (which is not a defined term in the glossary, so you could argue this scenario is also a case of RO interference).

 

At the end of the day all of this is easily avoided if you stick to only using approved commands from when the shooter steps up for their turn until the Range is Clear command. Other than clarifying shooters' questions about the COF or start position there is no need to have additional communication. 

 

 

You're maybe overlooking something. The CoF begins at "Make Ready" and ends at "Range Is Clear". Anything said before or after those is not within the CoF and isn't subject to the confines of the rulebook. Best practice says you don't say anything before MR, but it's still not a prohibition against it.

 

I've had new-ish shooters who were either nervous or confused looking come to the line and I've talked to them briefly to make sure they understood what was required, or just offered a quick word of encouragement (while watching to see they didn't move to their gun). There are ways to do this safely. 

 

OTOH, if I know you're an experienced competitor all you're going to get from me is a quick look at your equipment, and Make Ready.

 

So no, unless the MD wants to go against the rulebook, you should not have gotten a hall pass for an early draw just because some RO's thought he used the 'wrong command'.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, regor said:

 

 

 

 

What rule are you referencing? There are very clearly defined approved range commands to be used when communicating with the shooter (8.3), and the only mention therein of non-approved commands is that the RO can issue interim commands between strings of fire (8.3.6.1), or issue safety warnings (8.6.1). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Issue a safety warning, like "Range is going hot?"  seems you answered your own question.

 

I have worked several majors and if you don't herd shooters as an RO you will never get done.  So are you suggesting  as an Ro I can't ask "who is the next shooter?"  Because  if you are I have a hard time believing you have ever worked a major.  What about calling a shooting order, can we do that?  Can we ask the name of a shooter so we can make sure we can get the correct score?  What about calling scores, can we do that?

 

 

See, there are a lot of times that you have to talk to shooters outside of the realm of the Official range commands and to suggest otherwise is a touch naive 

 

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I have seen it two or three times with 180 calls, once was on me (right handed, moving back and to my left while reloading, r.o. behind and to my right, he could not see the gun and it wasn't even close to a 180 or even a 140 but he called what his mind saw through my back). 

 

If I am shooting under a new r.o. I will exaggerate holding the gun out where he/she can see it, they see you moving toward the weak side while reloading and they get excited. 

 

 

I am not suggesting you broke the 180, but i worked  a match with a tricky stage and about 6 guys broke the 180 to about the 270 line,, none of them thought they broke the 180.  All of 180 violations were witnessed by 2 experienced ROs and sometimes the peanut gallery as well.  These were no joke looking down the barrel while standing up range 180 violations too. So i tend to take the "I am sure i didn't brake the 180" with a grain of salt

[AverageJoeShooting]

12 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

 

Nope. Nope nope nope nope

 

 

ok i mean i guess throwing dqs works for you.  when im the RO im not trying to send someone home.  IF they are pointing their loaded gun at others and its very clear that has happened ill throw the dq, but it does no good to just dq a new shooter.  That does nothing. in the 20 years i have of shooting behind my back ive never had any incident on any range with any shooter.  I have been dqed a few times for stupid s#!t, but several of those times it was just because an RO had a chip on his shoulder and wanted to know what it feels like to send people home.  im not saying every incident isnt dq worthy, but coming to a match with the mindset of sending someone home is really just an a_-hole RO move

[AverageJoeShooting]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I have seen it two or three times with 180 calls, once was on me (right handed, moving back and to my left while reloading, r.o. behind and to my right, he could not see the gun and it wasn't even close to a 180 or even a 140 but he called what his mind saw through my back). 

 

If I am shooting under a new r.o. I will exaggerate holding the gun out where he/she can see it, they see you moving toward the weak side while reloading and they get excited. 

i agree with this.  it took me exactly 1 time for an RO to hand me a dq for something he though he saw(which he didnt) for me to start running with the gun clearly in view and pointed in a safe direction.  If im running backwards you can be guaranteed im sticking the gun out and running like sonic if i have to just so he can make sure he doesnt think hes sees something