Safe Area rules

[DirkD]

7 hours ago, gerritm said:

Did you all notice how I worded it. Local Ranges rules require us to use a safe table and not case or un-case at our vehicles. You all can argue the validity of this, but I will continue to follow what they require. Safe tables and berms when under supervision to come to the line still applies along with flags and no sweeping. 

 

gerritm 

Local rules not allowed unless approved by HQ.

[pjb45]

There is policy, procedures, and practice. This mantra exists almost for all operations.  Not everyone follows USPSA dictates.  That is reality. 

[Sarge]

55 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

There is policy, procedures, and practice. This mantra exists almost for all operations.  Not everyone follows USPSA dictates.  That is reality. 

While that may be true in some regard what do you think would happen if a shooter came to a club and reloaded his gun with muzzle over berm but the club said that’s a DQ? If it were me I would ask why you didn’t publish that or make it known in advance. Then I would notify DNROI. DNROI would notify you to get their permission for implementing a club rule or stop using club rules. Your club says we do things the way we want. USPSA pulls affiliation. Club either goes outlaw and stops shooting sanctioned matches or stops shooting anything. Either way it sucks.

  The idea is for me to be able to travel from Ohio to let’s say Denver to visit my daughter and be able to shoot a match exactly the way it’s done here at home.

[mvmojo]

30 minutes ago, Sarge said:

While that may be true in some regard what do you think would happen if a shooter came to a club and reloaded his gun with muzzle over berm but the club said that’s a DQ? If it were me I would ask why you didn’t publish that or make it known in advance. Then I would notify DNROI. DNROI would notify you to get their permission for implementing a club rule or stop using club rules. Your club says we do things the way we want. USPSA pulls affiliation. Club either goes outlaw and stops shooting sanctioned matches or stops shooting anything. Either way it sucks.

  The idea is for me to be able to travel from Ohio to let’s say Denver to visit my daughter and be able to shoot a match exactly the way it’s done here at home.

Little bit of a conundrum on this one, do you lose your USPSA sanction or lose your range?  Our range does not allow muzzles to point upward over the berm.  We're surrounded by neighborhoods (built after the range was built, as usual).  The fear is that if a round ever leaves the range it could injury or kill someone.  At the very least, if it causes any damage we'd seriously risk having the club shut down by the county.  FWIW, we do state at every match briefing that muzzles should not be elevated above horizontal, no pointing over the berm (beware during a reload) and they are to be carried and stored muzzle down, not skyward.  I don't know whether we have an official exception from USPSA or not. 

 

We also have a rule that "if it's flagged, it's bagged" rule meaning you can carry a flagged firearm just as if it were in a bag (but we still want the muzzle pointed down).  Of course if it's actually in a bag, no one knows which way it's pointed.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, mvmojo said:

Little bit of a conundrum on this one, do you lose your USPSA sanction or lose your range?  Our range does not allow muzzles to point upward over the berm.  We're surrounded by neighborhoods (built after the range was built, as usual).  The fear is that if a round ever leaves the range it could injury or kill someone.  At the very least, if it causes any damage we'd seriously risk having the club shut down by the county.  FWIW, we do state at every match briefing that muzzles should not be elevated above horizontal, no pointing over the berm (beware during a reload) and they are to be carried and stored muzzle down, not skyward.  I don't know whether we have an official exception from USPSA or not. 

 

We also have a rule that "if it's flagged, it's bagged" rule meaning you can carry a flagged firearm just as if it were in a bag (but we still want the muzzle pointed down).  Of course if it's actually in a bag, no one knows which way it's pointed.

You should see if you have an exception. If not, try getting one. If that fails I would lose USPSA before the range for sure.

  It’s fine that your shooters meeting mentions no muzzle over the berm but ideally it would be displayed prominently on Practiscore registration page so nobody gets surprised.

[mvmojo]

33 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You should see if you have an exception. If not, try getting one. If that fails I would lose USPSA before the range for sure.

  It’s fine that your shooters meeting mentions no muzzle over the berm but ideally it would be displayed prominently on Practiscore registration page so nobody gets surprised.

That's a good idea to post the muzzle down range rule on Practiscore registration page.  I'll suggest it to our Match Director.

[nasty618]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

our club says we do things the way we want. USPSA pulls affiliation.

 

So you've been playing this game for a while... Can you give any specific, non-anecdotal examples where a club lost its affiliation for breaking 3.3?  How many clubs?  I can give you at least one specific example of the opposite.  Match fees matter.

[pjb45]

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

While that may be true in some regard what do you think would happen if a shooter came to a club and reloaded his gun with muzzle over berm but the club said that’s a DQ? If it were me I would ask why you didn’t publish that or make it known in advance. Then I would notify DNROI. DNROI would notify you to get their permission for implementing a club rule or stop using club rules. Your club says we do things the way we want. USPSA pulls affiliation. Club either goes outlaw and stops shooting sanctioned matches or stops shooting anything. Either way it sucks.

  The idea is for me to be able to travel from Ohio to let’s say Denver to visit my daughter and be able to shoot a match exactly the way it’s done here at home.

You answered your own question.  Your scenario is  not an issue for us.  

I have worked/shot in more than six states on a regular basis until I retired.  The stated goals of every president since MIke V has been to build membership and club affiliation.  

My statement stands on its own in my limited experience.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

You answered your own question.  Your scenario is  not an issue for us.  

I have worked/shot in more than six states on a regular basis until I retired.  The stated goals of every president since MIke V has been to build membership and club affiliation.  

My statement stands on its own in my limited experience.

How is a shooter coming from 2 states away to shoot one of your matches and finding out he can’t do a LEGAL reload not an issue for you? That is EXACTLY the issue.

[gerritm]

On 1/22/2021 at 8:01 PM, DirkD said:

Local rules not allowed unless approved by HQ.

So several, but not all of these ranges that host USPSA matches have a general rule that there is no gun (Long gun or pistol) handling casing or un-casing in the parking lots or vehicles to prevent accidents and are patrolled by their own SO's.

 

All handling of weapons must be at a range authorized permanent safe table or on the shooting line based on their range rules not USPSA rules. So am I going to violate this and tell the range official that because I am here for a USPSA match and not sure if their rule is USPSA local approved is it going to matter? Doesn't matter why you are at the range that rule stands for everyone. Would I technically be DQ'ed, not exactly, but asked to leave the range or have my membership revoked, yes.

 

 

gerritm

[SGT_Schultz]

Is the parking lot a part of the match?

[AKJD]

14 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

So you've been playing this game for a while... Can you give any specific, non-anecdotal examples where a club lost its affiliation for breaking 3.3?  How many clubs?  I can give you at least one specific example of the opposite.  Match fees matter.

Waiting to see the answer to this.

[Yeti]

I would need to be forewarned and think about that one during event to not be asked to leave.   Hope they have really tall berms! That no muzzle pointed too much above parallel would get me on reloads.

 

For the original question, I would leave my gun on the safe table and take the belt rig with loaded mags with me to the loo. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Is the parking lot a part of the match?

Yes. If it’s match day and you are there to shoot the match. 
  Look at it like this, if you go to your car to get more ammo and drop your gun, would you pick it up?

[mvmojo]

I would.  There's no RO around to pick it up for you and I'm sure not going to leave it on the ground while I go find and RO.

[pjb45]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

How is a shooter coming from 2 states away to shoot one of your matches and finding out he can’t do a LEGAL reload not an issue for you? That is EXACTLY the issue.

Your use of pronouns is atrocious.

You statements are generally inflammatory.  The situations you describe are NOT my issues, they are your issues. Please do not assign them to me.

 

As an army retiree, you know as well as I (navy veteran and air force employee) there are always local practices that are not always official policy or procedure compliant.  Every veteran I have met knows how to circumvent policy and procedures manual.

 

That is reality.

 

[pjb45]

I worked for a Big 4 Accounting and Consulting firm.

I observed that accountants adapt reality to their policy (GAAP) while consultants adapt different methodologies to reality of the situation.

 

Cookie cutter approaches rarely work in all situations.

 

Sometimes, religious discussions revolve around official church/religion policy to 'situational ethics' conflicts.

 

Sometimes situations need flexibility in official policy.

 

Pissing and moaning about situational ethics (the failure of cookie cutter mentality) is an exercise in futility.

 

I invoke the Gman theory "don't argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I worked for a Big 4 Accounting and Consulting firm.

I observed that accountants adapt reality to their policy (GAAP) while consultants adapt different methodologies to reality of the situation.

 

Cookie cutter approaches rarely work in all situations.

 

Sometimes, religious discussions revolve around official church/religion policy to 'situational ethics' conflicts.

 

Sometimes situations need flexibility in official policy.

 

Pissing and moaning about situational ethics (the failure of cookie cutter mentality) is an exercise in futility.

 

I invoke the Gman theory "don't argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

 

So now I’m stupid because I point out USPSA affiliation has specific expectations of a club? A USPSA CLUB CAN NOT apply local rules without permission from HQ. That’s not my rule. 

3.3

Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline.

Host

organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction.

Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in

compli

ance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express

written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these

provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ

 

[waktasz]

Indeed, but where does the match start? In the parking lot? In the driveway? At the clubhouse which is 450 yards from the outdoor pistol range? My local club in PA also has a no gunhandling rule in the parking lot. Bring your cased PCC to the range area and unbag at a safe area or against a berm. No one has a problem with it. 
 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

Indeed, but where does the match start? In the parking lot? In the driveway? At the clubhouse which is 450 yards from the outdoor pistol range? My local club in PA also has a no gunhandling rule in the parking lot. Bring your cased PCC to the range area and unbag at a safe area or against a berm. No one has a problem with it. 
 

  To be honest I still only see the occasional PCC get taken from a vehicle uncased . Everybody got tired of the misunderstanding of the rules in the beginning so now they are typically cased.

  I stand by the theory that if I come to shoot a match I am in the match when I come through the gate. I figure that way I can’t screw up.

  

[DirkD]

12 hours ago, waktasz said:

Indeed, but where does the match start? In the parking lot? In the driveway? At the clubhouse which is 450 yards from the outdoor pistol range? My local club in PA also has a no gunhandling rule in the parking lot. Bring your cased PCC to the range area and unbag at a safe area or against a berm. No one has a problem with it. 
 

If you take your pcc out of your car put it on a cart uncased, what would your local club do?

 

[mvmojo]

8 minutes ago, DirkD said:

If you take your pcc out of your car put it on a cart uncased, what would your local club do?

 

if it's flagged, no problem.  "Flagged is bagged" 

[waktasz]

Dunno. Maybe nothing, maybe run the guy out of town. The MD posts the additional PCC rules in the registrtation page and on the practiscore announcements so no one has try to do otherwise yet that I know of. We don't have posted RSO's watching people or anything like that

[DirkD]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Dunno. Maybe nothing, maybe run the guy out of town. The MD posts the additional PCC rules in the registrtation page and on the practiscore announcements so no one has try to do otherwise yet that I know of. We don't have posted RSO's watching people or anything like that

There is nothing they can do, it is allowed in the uspsa rules, no local rules unless approved by uspsa in writing 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DirkD said:

If you take your pcc out of your car put it on a cart uncased, what would your local club do?

 

As long as it’s flagged and I don’t sweep, nothing.