Real world "carry optics" NOT gun games

[gnappi]

I'm not being a smart ass here, it's just I'm curious on the issue should my need ever arise to actually NEED carry optics. 

 

So, with just about every gun game adopting a "carry optic" division, I have to ask. Just how does one carry a gun in real life with carry optics?

Holsters are no problem, mounting in the rear sight dovetail is no problem but I have a few Q's for those who actually do carry with optics, note NOT for competitors. 

 

I can't imagine easily concealing the profile of a carry optical sight, how do you do it? With a trench coat?  or with an over sized floppy shirt or belly bag?

 

Second, I know battery life is pretty long but do you turn them on when leaving the house? Over night on the nightstand? Or turn them on (I can't imagine doing this) as needed? 

 

Lastly do you change the batteries on a schedule? Re-sight every time you remove the sight to change them? And do you really trust your life to a fifty cent CR2032 or whatever cell your sight uses? 

 

[ChuckS]

Just as a reminder, this forum IS about gun games.

 

From the guidelines:

 

Intent
This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. And please, no hunting or "killing animals" (of any kind) threads.

 

(Thread moved to a more proper home...)

[gnappi]

Thanks for moving it Chuck. 

 

I get the intent and have seen topics like "365 IWB holster" which skated under the radar   Mea culpa 

 

 

 

 

[RJH]

If you appendix carry (which is, depending on division, a USPSA legal way to carry)  covering a red dot is no issue.  Even more so with a gun like a 365 or hellcat with a tiny sight like the SHIELD.  

 

You can 100% shoot these in USPSA, so on topic and allowed   

 

I also recommend shooting your carry gun, whatever it is in USPSA matches occasionally 

[nate89]

I carry a "carry optics" gun more than not.  I have a 226 that I had cut for a red dot by L&M precision (shout out for some great work by the way!).  I also have a couple 229s that I had cut for dots as well.  I have an RMR on my 226 and one of the 229s, and I change the batteries out every year.  The other 229 is mostly a practice gun and has a Holosun 407c on it.  I'm just planning on replacing the battery when it dies, but it is still going strong after over a year.  I have shot all of these guns as USPSA matches, and never saw a big change in my performance relative to the regulars I shoot with.

 

If you want to carry one, it can be done comfortably and with regular clothes.  I use dark star gear, JM custom Kydex, and Phlster for most of by concealment holsters.  They are all comfortable and conceal very well.  I have even shot matches with my 226 (no dot) in limited from appendix, and it has worked pretty well for me.

 

I never turn the dots off, they are on 24/7.  Batteries are cheap, especially when I'm only using 1/year per optic.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, gnappi said:

I'm not being a smart ass here, it's just I'm curious on the issue should my need ever arise to actually NEED carry optics. 

 

So, with just about every gun game adopting a "carry optic" division, I have to ask. Just how does one carry a gun in real life with carry optics?

Holsters are no problem, mounting in the rear sight dovetail is no problem but I have a few Q's for those who actually do carry with optics, note NOT for competitors. 

 

I can't imagine easily concealing the profile of a carry optical sight, how do you do it? With a trench coat?  or with an over sized floppy shirt or belly bag?

 

Second, I know battery life is pretty long but do you turn them on when leaving the house? Over night on the nightstand? Or turn them on (I can't imagine doing this) as needed? 

 

Lastly do you change the batteries on a schedule? Re-sight every time you remove the sight to change them? And do you really trust your life to a fifty cent CR2032 or whatever cell your sight uses? 

 

 

Dots are pretty small, you wont have any trouble concealing it. Batteries are rated for years now, my game gun I just leave the dot on most of the time. I'll probably change it over the winter just because. I don't see why it would need to be rezero'd unless you have one that needs to be removed to change the battery. Do you trust your life to a $2 striker spring, or some other cheap tiny part of your gun? How often do you see CR2032's fail to the point you don't trust them? There are better questions you could be asking if you were really interested. 

 

You could run a set up like this in CO or Open depending how you carry.

[gnappi]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Dots are pretty small, you wont have any trouble concealing it. Batteries are rated for years now, my game gun I just leave the dot on most of the time. I'll probably change it over the winter just because. I don't see why it would need to be rezero'd unless you have one that needs to be removed to change the battery. Do you trust your life to a $2 striker spring, or some other cheap tiny part of your gun? How often do you see CR2032's fail to the point you don't trust them? There are better questions you could be asking if you were really interested. 

 

You could run a set up like this in CO or Open depending how you carry.

Actually I am interested, what Q's would be better to ask?

 

 

 

 

[shred]

A single stack and Sig Romeo Zero is easier to conceal IWB than most regular Glocks.  Relative value of one setup over the other can cause pages of discussion on other gun forums.  If you are super-worried about dot reliability, then co-witness sights are all over the place.  Frankly a sudden dot failure at exactly when you need that dot to make the shot seems like really long odds unless you never check it.

 

 

[18111811]

I was issued a 320 xcompact with the romeo at my last job.  It wasnt much more of a larger profile than before we got the slide exchange kits.  

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, gnappi said:

Actually I am interested, what Q's would be better to ask?

 

 

The way you worded your OP seemed like it could be sarcastic. Here's one to consider. What do you do with brightness settings? Bright sunny day for example, then you walk into a business that's a little dark inside. Now what? I'd be interested in what others do.

 

Some dots have auto brightness, I haven't played with this much to test under different light conditions. I have found I like my dot a little brighter then the auto setting. ymmv

 

Another option would be just pick a setting and go with it. I practice with all different settings anyway. This way I'm somewhat used to shooting with to bright or to dim of a dot. This is probably somewhat dot dependent, some can get really bright.

 

Another option is to know what setting you're on and how to adjust your dot through your shirt with out looking at it. So picking a dot with easy to use buttons would be a must. I can run my dot full blast on a sunny day. Then walking inside it's just a matter of hitting the down button a couple times, then when leaving hit the up button a couple times. It's simple, but it's worth thinking about ahead of time.

[Joe4d]

Slide mounted dots are pretty fun toys to play with. Currently that is pretty much all they are. Folks cant even trust them for a pistol match. Many seem to have 1 mounted, 1 spare, and another off getting repaired they keep in rotation.  No way Id ever waste time and effort on these for serious use. Even worse is the gawdawful high BUIS Timmy's want. Just creates a confusing mess of a sight picture. I highly doubt any of these dots do anything for a carry gun to be used at silhouette sized targets inside 7 yards.

Anyone care to look up a the high hitfactors of some classifiers that are all stand and shoot short range ? Like an El presidente ? Id like to see difference in CO, Production,  Or limited to open.

 

[rowdyb]

9 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Slide mounted dots are pretty fun toys to play with. Currently that is pretty much all they are. Folks cant even trust them for a pistol match. Many seem to have 1 mounted, 1 spare, and another off getting repaired they keep in rotation.  No way Id ever waste time and effort on these for serious use. Even worse is the gawdawful high BUIS Timmy's want. Just creates a confusing mess of a sight picture. I highly doubt any of these dots do anything for a carry gun to be used at silhouette sized targets inside 7 yards.

Anyone care to look up a the high hitfactors of some classifiers that are all stand and shoot short range ? Like an El presidente ? Id like to see difference in CO, Production,  Or limited to open.

 

The hitfactor GM/95% breakpoint for 99-11 El Pres is 12.89 in Open, 11.81 in Limited, 11.06 in Carry Optics and 11.06 in Production. El Pres is shot at 10 yards.

 

Figuring an all A hits run that is 4.65 seconds for Open, 5.08 seconds for Limited and 5.42 seconds for Prod/CO.

Edited August 19, 2020 by rowdyb

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

The hitfactor GM/95% breakpoint for 99-11 El Pres is 12.89 in Open, 11.81 in Limited, 11.06 in Carry Optics and 11.06 in Production. El Pres is shot at 10 yards.

 

Figuring an all A hits run that is 4.65 seconds for Open, 5.08 seconds for Limited and 5.42 seconds for Prod/CO.

 

4.65 all A's is pretty baller. 

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Slide mounted dots are pretty fun toys to play with. Currently that is pretty much all they are. Folks cant even trust them for a pistol match. Many seem to have 1 mounted, 1 spare, and another off getting repaired they keep in rotation.  No way Id ever waste time and effort on these for serious use. Even worse is the gawdawful high BUIS Timmy's want. Just creates a confusing mess of a sight picture. I highly doubt any of these dots do anything for a carry gun to be used at silhouette sized targets inside 7 yards.

Anyone care to look up a the high hitfactors of some classifiers that are all stand and shoot short range ? Like an El presidente ? Id like to see difference in CO, Production,  Or limited to open.

 

 

I think dot's are improving, but reliability is still the biggest concern with them for sure. Now the guys with 3 or more dots are probably shooting a fairly high round count on those dots. In fact I'd bet not only do they have a spare dot they probably have a spare gun for the same reason. It seems like now days most either fail right away or are probably good for a while. I imagine most ccw guns don't high round counts like our game guns. If they can survive our abuse I think they'll be fine.

 

I have a $200 holosun it's been good for about 10k at this point. So I wouldn't have a problem carrying with one of those. But, I would want to run a couple thousand with it to be sure it's g2g first.

[CClassForLife]

In my experience, red dots have been more reliable than irons on Glocks. The front post gets loose after 5k rounds with Blue Loctite. I never had to adjust any of my dots (RMR and SRO).

 

If I were to carry, it will either be with an RMR or 507C with no BUIS.

[Joe4d]

Thanks for the El pres lookup.
Pretty much what I thought.  

[Sethdaniel05]

I’ve been carrying a Glock 19 with Type 2 RMR for about 3 years. I actually carry it every day.

No issue concealing in appendix position.

Battery change one time per year. Re zero after change because it has to be removed. I always use a new set of screws and blue Loctite.

Optic stays on constantly and I adjust the brightness per my situation.

This has been 100% reliable. I take 2 1k round training classes per year and about 500 rounds per month.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Edwards30]

As far as carry guns, optics will be the way of the future.

Adding something like an RMR onto a milled slide really doesn't stick up as much as you would think and typically stays similar to the width of the firearm.

I am actually currently setting up my Glock 34 for carry optics and will most likely go for an RMR Type 2 which was redesigned to be used on slides and take the abuse. This clearly won't be my carry rig but will mimic what my 19 setup will be.

As far as some other other questions, RMR has the ability to auto adjust and you can also manually adjust it.  The batteries last I believe 2 years on the RMR, a lot of people change them out at a set date each year just for security.  Also, depending on your milling job, they have alignment tabs for the RMR/SRO and typically zero doesn't move much during battery changes.

[RangerTrace]

I just open carry.....

[M1A4ME]

My EDC concealed pistol is a P07 with a DI RMR on it.  Been carrying it that way for 5 or 6 or 7 years now.  IWB, right side.  Spare mag. left side IWB.  In the summer I wear those cargo pocket shorts so I can carry the phone, keys, key fob things for the cars, pocket knife, small flashlight, wallet, change, etc.  T shirt tucked into the shorts and a button up short sleeve shirt hanging down past my waste.  It's how I dress.  All the time.

 

In the winter I carry the same except the pants are regular length cargo pants (still got the same stuff to carry around) with a jacket/coat on over the button up shirt.

 

Went to a wedding a couple weeks back (youngest son) and had to wear a suit (hate those things).  Same holster, mag. pouch but dress pants, shirt/tie and suit jacket.  My son said something or other and I told him I didn't need one, I had a P07 and a spare mag.  He looked at me and said, "Really, you've got the pistol on you?"  

 

I'm retired, don't go to work, the P07 goes everywhere I got - or I don't go.  Except to the courthouse to get my CC permit renewed every 5 years, or into the DMV to get a new license/registration, etc.

 

The holster I use is not my first, or even second concealed carry holster for that pistol, but it works so I probably won't be getting another one.  Holsters are like kayaks.  It looks good, it has the right specs at the right price, and then you start using it and find out it really doesn't meant your expectations/needs, so you try to do a better job of picking out "the one" when you buy that second one.  On my second kayak, too, and I keep finding myself checking out specs/reviews/prices on another one.

 

Oh, my rig has the slide milled to let the RMR sit lower and support it better.  That would make it a bit easier to conceal.  1/4" maybe??

[Youngeyes]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:16 PM, RangerTrace said:

I just open carry.....

Badass brother Trace 

[ima45dv8]

Don't mess with Texas (Rangers!).

[shred]

FWIW, HHF on El Prez is going to be largely useless as a judge of equipment differences beyond maybe holster and mag pouches.

 

It's wide open targets at 10 yards.

Only the best runs count.  Lucky runs count too.

 

Plus odds are the HHF was set by somebody squinting at the numbers and saying 'that looks about right' or whatever somebody shot at a Nationals rather than any scientific process (despite what official materials said, for 20 years the HHFs were set by TLAR)

 

On the other topic in this thread, the chance of dot failure at the exact same time you need to shoot something at a distance a dot is required seems vanishingly small for a non-LE/Mil that checks their gear every so often.

[Captiva]

I get the question, but somehow it makes no difference. My Glock 19 with Trijicon RMR mounted carries no different then with iron sights. The 1"extra height is unnoticeable either at 11:00 or 3:00 to 4:00 body holster position.  Strange, but I love it.

 

My Mat Del Fatti collection has been my biggest issue with slide mounted optics. Other than that zero downsides.

 

 

As an aside, it's almost unfathomable how much a better self defense shooter I am with the slide mounted red dot optic. I pretty much sucked with irons at questionable defensible self defense shooting distances, but no more. Granted I still can't hang with the competitors here, but for [insert self defense scenario here] I am way more confident in placement and safety.

[Captiva]

On 8/19/2020 at 9:35 AM, Joe4d said:

Slide mounted dots are pretty fun toys to play with. Currently that is pretty much all they are. ...

 

@Joe4d, I would point you to the report linked to this blog post for a different opinion for you to consider.  Results of a 4 Year Handgun Red Dot Study

 

All my best,

Captiva