Going faster?

[midatlantic]

Hi all,

 

     I'm in my 60s, 5'10 188, can still drop and do 20 (on a good day!) pretty good shape. I'm a C shooter in USPSA, 40 major. High C classifiers. Pretty accurate. But I am SLOW particularly on stages that require much movement.

 

Partly its age, my reaction time isn't what it used to be (why I dont ride bikes in city traffic anymore) On a 30 round stage where a 35 time places you mid-pack I'm at 40-45. 

 

I do dry fire, work on draw, transitions etc. And I know the sport is a combination of many small parts. 

 

  But none of the training suggestions seem oriented specifically towards the moving part of the competition. At yesterday's match I watched others moving in what seemed near slow motion (exaggeration there) and they are actually 5 seconds or so faster than I!

 

Anyone care to suggest two or three dry fire/range training practices to get myself through the course faster? Or am I missing something entirely.

 

Thanks all

[selecw]

Pick an M or GM in your club and do a few movement focused live fire training sessions with them. Most will be more than willing to help.

[Frankly]

Tennis with a player good enough to place balls on opposite sides of the court so you're forced to hustle but have to control yourself enough to make a good stroke. Seems like the closest analogy. Of course the hard thing about tennis is finding a good partner who is about the same level as you are, most either can't keep a volley going or get bored with your mediocreness. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Frankly

[Out of Ammo]

Just now, Frankly said:

Tennis, seriously

Funny,   I'm in the same boat.  I'm a super senior, and move a little slow. I've thought about taking up something like pickle ball to help me move faster on stages.

[Frankly]

Yeah and if you get into then you add another thing to your list and start getting competitive in that too!

[IHAVEGAS]

You are old for a run and gun shooter.

 

Old is not fast.

 

Embrace it, enjoy shooting anyway.

 

                                                                     Signed,

                                                                                   60+ slow guy

[midatlantic]

Ha! thats what I usually tell myself. My girlfriend observes "you're competitive." I guess she's right.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, midatlantic said:

Ha! thats what I usually tell myself. My girlfriend observes "you're competitive." I guess she's right.

 

"And you know, that you're over the hill, when your mind makes a promise that your body can't fill" - Little Feat

 

 

 

Seems like it is a process, learn to keep pushing while learning not to get upset that you aren't 30 - 40 - 50 anymore. 

[j1b]

I have a couple of ideas as I've been trying to work on movement skills as well. I'm not 60 ... but I ain't 30 either so I'm learning adjust as I get older. 

 

The OP said "speed is made up of a lot of different parts". And that's true. Super true in my opinion. But it's a lot of "time suck" things. 

 

One general rule of thumb is "get to the shooting" so essentially when you are planning stages plan on the fastest time/way to getting to start shooting. That sounds intuitive of course but I see it all the time where someone gets to a place where they can see all the targets from one position versus shooting targets while getting to that spot. Happens all the time. 

 

Speed and consistency entering and leaving positions is critical. Learn how you want to load your body so you can get out as quickly as possible. Smooth is fast here (IMO). Getting out of a position with a lot of energy does you little good if it's taking time to crunch and load your body to launch. Fast steps, quick movements. No matter how old you are, think about fast movements.

 

When entering into a position think again about how fast you can get to the shooting. So don't charge so hard into a position that you have to waste energy (and time) to stop. Start the slow down a step or two back, have the gun up and on target, be ready to shoot as soon as you can shoot. 

 

This big areas of movement can be practiced in dry fire. Set up some boxes on the ground and just practice going in and getting out. Have targets set up and you can then begin experimenting with what is smoothest and fastest for you.

 

And one other things to maybe be mindful of is where the "time suck" sections of stages are. I shot a match yesterday and literally, quite literally, said to myself on our thirds stage walk through "this is the time suck, this is where you have to be very diligent, very smooth, and very intentional. The rest of it will be what it is, but this little area here is where this stage will try and eat your time"

 

Final thought from me is that do all of this stuff at speed is not very comfortable. Or at least it never has been for me. To give an example I shot a classifier the other day and when checking the scores I realized I needed to be about half a second faster to be where I wanted to be. That was on maybe a 4 or 5 second run. So I went home and set up some targets and started messing with the PAR time on my timer. And the reality was that I just hadn't been pushing myself hard enough. It's hard to go this fast. Now, I acknowledge we can't push ourselves to the point of crashing - I get that - but generally speaking for me at least it was a wake up call to always be pushing. Always be pushing just a bit to eek out that extra .50 a second. That's when you'll get better. And you do that a couple different ways and you're shaving seconds off stage times (over time of course).

 

J

[j1b]

34 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Seems like it is a process, learn to keep pushing while learning not to get upset that you aren't 30 - 40 - 50 anymore. 

 

Oh and this too

[MikeBurgess]

actual speed of movement is not as huge a portion of your time as you think, the BIG time suck is not moving out from position one as soon as you can and firing shots at position 2 as soon as you can. 

 

For drills set up some "vision barriers" like some barrels or some targets or whatever you have so you will have to move 8 feet or so to shoot around the ends of them, place some targets down range so you have to move to shoot them around each side of your vision barriers (like left of left barrier and right or right barrier) then practice starting your movement as you are finishing shooting at one end and shooting the instant you get to the other, depending on target placement and difficulty you may be moving as you are shooting the last and first targets, I like to vary the placement and difficulty of the targets on this drill so I can work lots of variations 

[Boomstick303]

Are you using a timer when you are dry firing position movement?  Are you training to where it’s uncomfortable?  Meaning you would not shoot alphas while practicing movement.  There are many excellent books and instructors on how to improve movement. Many of them discuss how you have to train speed different from

accuracy in different training sessions then bringing the two together. Timers are crucial for every element of this game. If you are not using one, it could be of great benefit to using one. 

[Hdiamond]

Do you have any videos so we can see what is really draining your times?

 

I get that you’re 10 seconds slower than the middle of the pack, but it’s impossible to tell why that is without seeing. 

[IHAVEGAS]

48 minutes ago, Hdiamond said:

Do you have any videos so we can see what is really draining your times?

 

Or maybe a copy of his birth certificate?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by IHAVEGAS

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

You are old for a run and gun shooter.

 

Old is not fast.

 

I'm only 59, so I guess i'm not old yet, but imho physical speed is only rarely a significant factor. It's much more important to just not waste time. as you can see in this vid, i'm not exactly moving fast, but I'm only really planting for the hardest shots. Once you can hit the targets (basic marksmanship), you probably need to be working alot on shooting while moving, and doing drills that include movement. In practice, make sure you are actually shooting before you fully stop moving.

 

 

[Ben53]

I'm watching this thread as well.. I'm a Super Senior.. time getting from one position to another is a big issue for me.. I just got back into USPSA after a VERY long layoff.  And also am learning to find the dot in the reflex (I shoot CO).  I know I have lots (everything) to work on.. so learning big time from the experienced shooters here.

[konkapot]

If this sport involved 300yd dashes between target arrays, your age/speed would be a factor. In some cases the distances we are moving are less than 300 inches. Like moto showed above (and others have said) it's not being fast, it's being efficient/smooth. The closest thing to "fast" that might apply is looking for "crisp" movement. 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Ben53 said:

I'm watching this thread as well.. I'm a Super Senior.. time getting from one position to another is a big issue for me..

 

unless you are disabled, it's not likely that time getting from one position to another, but how long it takes you to leave after firing the last shot, and how long it takes you to start shooting again in the new position. The distances traveled in USPSA are almost never enough for raw speed to count for very much, which is why you see alot of very successful shooters that would lose to most anyone in a 50-yard dash.

 

one simple drill is just put two shooting positions 5 yards or so apart. shoot a target from one, then shoot a target from the other. Don't pay attention to anything except the time between the 2 positions, and try to reduce it. Start by weighting your leg to push off so as soon as the shot breaks you can go. work on shooting as soon as you get to the new position. see what works. see what you can do while still hitting easy targets. many of the targets we shoot are not difficult at all so focus on those. Don't worry about trying to leave quickly an 15 yard partial for now. Just get used to doing it on the easy stuff when you can.

Edited August 17, 2020 by motosapiens

[Ben53]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

unless you are disabled, it's not likely that time getting from one position to another, but how long it takes you to leave after firing the last shot, and how long it takes you to start shooting again in the new position. The distances traveled in USPSA are almost never enough for raw speed to count for very much, which is why you see alot of very successful shooters that would lose to most anyone in a 50-yard dash.

 

one simple drill is just put two shooting positions 5 yards or so apart. shoot a target from one, then shoot a target from the other. Don't pay attention to anything except the time between the 2 positions, and try to reduce it. Start by weighting your leg to push off so as soon as the shot breaks you can go. work on shooting as soon as you get to the new position. see what works. see what you can do while still hitting easy targets. many of the targets we shoot are not difficult at all so focus on those. Don't worry about trying to leave quickly an 15 yard partial for now. Just get used to doing it on the easy stuff when you can.

Good stuff there.  Thank you.  I'm seeing that it's all about the little things one can do to shave small parts off of a second that adds up to seconds over the course.  Thanks for the idea for the workout; I'll definitely try that!!

[MikeBurgess]

one of the best examples of shooting sooner I have seen is on the stage at 1:30 in this video, he was nice enough to make it low motion, he moves into the third location and breaks a shot on a popper that clears the wall creating the shooting location by about 2" 

 

[MikeBurgess]

5 minutes ago, Ben53 said:

Good stuff there.  Thank you.  I'm seeing that it's all about the little things one can do to shave small parts off of a second that adds up to seconds over the course.  Thanks for the idea for the workout; I'll definitely try that!!

for most shooters moving sooner and or shooting sooner will shave off more than small parts of a second, I regularly see shooters spend most of a second to start shooting after getting to each shooting location in stage. This is not a little thing that gets marginal returns this is a big thing that offers big rewards. 

 

[Lastcat]

19 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

one of the best examples of shooting sooner I have seen is on the stage at 1:30 in this video, he was nice enough to make it low motion, he moves into the third location and breaks a shot on a popper that clears the wall creating the shooting location by about 2" 

 

 

Yep, Ryan is really good. He has put in the time. 

[Ben53]

Mike Burgess, thanks!  Lots for me to learn... appreciate you posting the video also!

[Lastcat]

I'm 64 and have been at it 3 yrs. It's not easy and there is lots to learn. I wish I had started earlier. I think it's best to video your stages, see where you could gain in time. Just 2-3 seconds can gain you in overall finishes. I've had good stages and them dumpster fire stages. There are so many tricks and tips to learn along the way. Take a Training Class if you can. 1 thing I notice for some is that they get to a position with their gun down. If you could get there with the gun up and ready to fire, you can gain in time. Just like Mike B posted about Ryan firing around a wall, just in time to hit a Popper. 

 

I got a video, nothing super spectacular. I see my mistakes (and I am sure you will see many more). Right after target 7, I paused for a bit, I was going to shoot the far target, but remembered I had taken it already. Then at the end, I took 2 shots to the last 2 targets, when I transition over, I noticed I had 2 Charlies, went back and put an Alpha on the final shot . I still have much to learn, most the better Open Shooters are way ahead of where I am at a B. But it's fun, being retired, it's my favorite hobby. Ask too, you could always find a friend that can give ya tips. Hope you do well, get that B Class.

 

 

[motosapiens]

21 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

I got a video, nothing super spectacular. I see my mistakes (and I am sure you will see many more). Right after target 7, I paused for a bit, I was going to shoot the far target, but remembered I had taken it already. Then at the end, I took 2 shots to the last 2 targets, when I transition over, I noticed I had 2 Charlies, went back and put an Alpha on the final shot . I still have much to learn, most the better Open Shooters are way ahead of where I am at a B. But it's fun, being retired, it's my favorite hobby. Ask too, you could always find a friend that can give ya tips. Hope you do well, get that B Class.

 

 

 

Yeah, your shooting speed is good, and you are shooting early coming into positions, but you have some time to gain in leaving earlier. I find it helpful to put leaving the position into my visualization, and as I imagine the sights settling on the last target, I'm also imagining my weight starting to shift and getting ready to push off when the sights lift. One of the fun things about this sport is there are so many little things to always improve on and you can keep getting better for a long long time.

Edited August 17, 2020 by motosapiens