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Location or View (again...)


ChuckS
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I have captured the essence of a stage I saw a while back. This example is a 30 round long course with 5 arrays of 3 USPSA targets. During my walkthrough, I observed that it would take more than 8 rounds from locations A and or B. I made a comment on this and I was told that the stage was fine since you could see T1 and T3 from locations C and D respectively. This kind of bugged me but I wasn’t sure it was illegal (and I was shooting Open 😉) so I just pressed on. But it still bugs me so I brought it here!

Here are the rules involved in this issue:

1.2.1.3 Long Courses – In Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

 

Location

A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

 

View

A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

 

While A and C and B and D are definitely different locations, by the USPSA definition of view, the view of T1 is the same at locations A and C and the view of T3 is the same at B and D.  I am probably over-thinking this but it has been bugging me. Thoughts?

View_Question_perspective.JPG

View_Question_Level.JPG

Edited by ChuckS
boo boo
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It's legal - there is no single location that requires more than 8 shots, there is no single view that requires more than 8 shots. 

 

Location A does not require more than 8 shots. It requires only 6. T1 is visible from C which is both a different location and a different view. You can work out the rest of the locations and views similarly. When in doubt, ask yourself if there is a place where you have to shoot more than 8 shots without moving or going around a vision barrier. Since you can get to T1 and T3 from different locations, they are not required to be shot from any specific location so they don't factor into the count. 

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So i am thinking that T1 and T3 are not considered to be part of the arrays visible from A and B. That makes sense. But the rule does say location OR view. Location was cool but I was hung up on view as per the glossary. If one does not consider T1 and T3 as included in either downrange array, life is good.

 

 

ETA: Like I said, it was bugging be but I could not call it illegal. I just wasn't exactly sure why it was legal.

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T1 and T3 are definitely part of the arrays and are visible from A/B, but they don't count towards the limit in 1.2.1.3 because they don't have to be shot from either A or B. 

 

The view of T1 is not the same from A and C since those are different locations. The view is from location - at location C, you have four views: array on the left, T1, T3 and array on the right (assuming you can see them from C, hard to tell about T3). They are separate views because you have vision barrier in between. At location A you have two views: array on the left WITH T1 and array on the right. There is no vision barrier between array on the left and T1, so it's a single view (and even with that it's still 8 rounds).

 

Even if the array on the left was four targets and the view at A offered 10 shots (array + T1), the stage would still be legal because you are not required to fire those 10 shots from A, given that T1 is also offered at location C. 

Edited by IVC
left vs. right.
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How many targets can be taken from A and B?

If A and B are the only locations/area/view (2)..... 

Than

Can all the targets be taken with only 16 shots?

 

The point is is a bit of the converse on the conversation----Can the course of fire be completed with ONLY firing 8 rounds or less from each area/location.  It does not matter that targets are visible for multiple locations.

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"The view of T1 is not the same from A and C since those are different locations. " View and location are different things. A location is changed by moving both feet. A view is broken by a vision barrier. One could walk along the fault line from C to A or from D to B and have the same view of T1 and T3 respectively based on the glossary definition of view. This is what made my head hurt. If I say that T1 and T3 are not included in the down range arrays, my head does not hurt. 😉

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17 hours ago, ChuckS said:

"The view of T1 is not the same from A and C since those are different locations. " View and location are different things. A location is changed by moving both feet. A view is broken by a vision barrier. One could walk along the fault line from C to A or from D to B and have the same view of T1 and T3 respectively based on the glossary definition of view. This is what made my head hurt. If I say that T1 and T3 are not included in the down range arrays, my head does not hurt. 😉

Since the thread is reopened by the higher authority... 🙂

 

As you walk from A to C you lose array on the left so even though you keep T1 in sight, it's a different view. It's not "a view of T1," it is just "a view." It includes all targets you can see, not just one specific target you are interested in. 

 

The way I look at it is that the concept of "view" is required in order to make "location" meaningful. Consider standing at A, then just shuffling your feet and, voila, your have a new location. So the rules must have a way of differentiating such superficial movement from creating a new location. Enter "view." As long as you putz around A you might be getting technically a different "location" if your both feet moved, but you are retaining the same "view" because you are seeing all the same targets. In addition, the definition of the "view" clarifies that vision barriers create a new "view" for the purposes of limiting the number of rounds, so that each "target cluster" is a separate entity when evaluating the stage. 

 

In a way, "location" and "view" work together to define the concept of what we would call a "shooting position." Change "location" a bit by shuffling feet and you're still in the same "shooting position" because you're seeing the same targets. Look around from the "shooting position" and you'll have a "view" of different target clusters, separated by vision barriers. If the "view" changes, your "shooting position" has changed.

 

Here's an example. If you remove T1-T3 from the stage, your locations A and B become a single location. They offer the same targets (views) and the difference between the two becomes superficial, the same as if you shuffled around A alone. You can still have all the rest of the targets because they are in different views (there is a barrier in between). If you now removed the wall in the front, you'd end up with an illegal stage because it would require 12 rounds from the location A/B (becomes a single location with a single view). 

 

It could be explained better in the rules, I guess... Probably need to have concept of "view" broken down into "view of a target cluster" (single set of uninterrupted targets) and "view from location" (what individual target clusters are visible from the location). 

 

A quick and easy way to look for irregular course is to determine if there is a "shooting position" where you have to engage a lot of targets and you can't engage them from any other "shooting position." Every time you suspect there is such a cluster, look for any other location in the course where some of the targets are visible. If you can't find such a location, it's not a legal stage. Otherwise it's legal. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Background

The rule essentially states you can not require more than 8 shots from a view/location.....

 

Findings

There are two and only two views/locations as defined in the diagram; A and B.

There are nine targets; 30 round CoF, six targets in the front

  and

       9 targets to be shot from either A or B for a total of 18 rounds.

 

Conclusion

8 shots from A and 8 shots from B for 16 shots leave 1 target requiring two shots.

 

Summary

It does not matter the last target can be seen from either A or B.    To complete the CoF as shown from the diagram, more than 8 shots have to occur from a single view/location. You cannot abrogate the rule by saying a target(s) can be seen from two (or more) locations/views in this CoF

 

Illegal CoF.

 

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7 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Background

The rule essentially states you can not require more than 8 shots from a view/location.....

 

Findings

There are two and only two views/locations as defined in the diagram; A and B.

There are nine targets; 30 round CoF, six targets in the front

  and

       9 targets to be shot from either A or B for a total of 18 rounds.

 

Conclusion

8 shots from A and 8 shots from B for 16 shots leave 1 target requiring two shots.

 

Summary

It does not matter the last target can be seen from either A or B.    To complete the CoF as shown from the diagram, more than 8 shots have to occur from a single view/location. You cannot abrogate the rule by saying a target(s) can be seen from two (or more) locations/views in this CoF

 

Illegal CoF.

 

 

You can see t1 and t3 anywhere alone the AC and BD line.  How is each step you take along that line not a different location?

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Perfectly legal stage. Maybe I missed it with all the talk about A and B but looking at the diagram, the shooting area seems to stop well short of the last wall so I can see leaning for T1 and T3 but where could you shoot T2 without falling shots out of the shooting area? Maybe the diagram is not accurate?

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1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

You can see t1 and t3 anywhere alone the AC and BD line.  How is each step you take along that line not a different location?

If that was true than there are more than two locations. The diagram depicts 2 and only two locations for the front 9 targets.   Chuck is correct in his assessment.  

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1 hour ago, Paul B said:

Perfectly legal stage. Maybe I missed it with all the talk about A and B but looking at the diagram, the shooting area seems to stop well short of the last wall so I can see leaning for T1 and T3 but where could you shoot T2 without falling shots out of the shooting area? Maybe the diagram is not accurate?

A and B are the crux of the matter. I would suggest that the depiction of A and B define two and only two views/locations.  

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Due to my understanding of the definitions of view, location and array, this is what I would field.
http://content.invisioncic.com/r270761/monthly_2020_08/View_Question_perspective_fixed.thumb.JPG.a399ebd131649e2ef040415c99973f93.JPG
All you've done is create a shoot thru onto the 2 targets in question.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

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