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The progression of CO


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5 minutes ago, Overscore said:

When I get voted in as USPSA president this November, I'm eliminating the whole major/minor PF business across the board.  It's total nonsense, and it's at the root of all these debates about divisions.  We all know that if I shoot someone in the kidney with a .40, it will not have a 33% greater effect on that person's life than if it had been a 9.  Same with the forehead.

Last time I talked to Foley he said such a move was inevitable but they were hand wringing over people being stuck with worthless equipment....which is why I think Limited Major should continue as a division...and open should still provide for a major power factor for that matter.    

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57 minutes ago, Overscore said:

When I get voted in as USPSA president this November, I'm eliminating the whole major/minor PF business across the board

Yes i'm sure with a voting member base with thousands of dollars of raceguns invested in major scoring will vote for your platform. I too would put a quarter into a machine that kicks me in the groin.

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20 minutes ago, sc68cal said:

Yes i'm sure with a voting member base with thousands of dollars of raceguns invested in major scoring will vote for your platform. I too would put a quarter into a machine that kicks me in the groin.

 

I didn't say I'll eliminate open, just stop with the power factor nonsense.  People can continue to shoot their $10,000 guns all they want.  If they're that worried about the being at a disadvantage now because someone with slightly lighter recoil will have the same scoring numbers, then stop shooting Cs and Ds.

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40 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

I didn't say I'll eliminate open, just stop with the power factor nonsense.  People can continue to shoot their $10,000 guns all they want.  If they're that worried about the being at a disadvantage now because someone with slightly lighter recoil will have the same scoring numbers, then stop shooting Cs and Ds.

 

It's a great idea to punish all the guys who picked a division they liked, and spent the time and money required to be competitive so we can attract guys who want to shoot fancy guns but don't want to put the time and money into it to be competitive. What's not reasonable about that? I mean sure those dudes like major scoring, and spent 10k on a open gun designed to run 170 PF ammo. I'm sure they wont mind getting another gun with less holes in the barrel or a smaller comp or whatever, just so they can basically play 170mm CO. 

 

Another option, guys who don't want to shoot major could just pick a division where they can be competitive with minor. Crazy town right? Not many come to mind, but they could try CO, Prod, SS, Rev and PCC. Hell, L-10 nationals was won once using minor shoot that, beat 4 guys and you can probably be the Area champion. 

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49 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's a great idea to punish all the guys who picked a division they liked, and spent the time and money required to be competitive so we can attract guys who want to shoot fancy guns but don't want to put the time and money into it to be competitive. What's not reasonable about that? I mean sure those dudes like major scoring, and spent 10k on a open gun designed to run 170 PF ammo. I'm sure they wont mind getting another gun with less holes in the barrel or a smaller comp or whatever, just so they can basically play 170mm CO. 

 

Another option, guys who don't want to shoot major could just pick a division where they can be competitive with minor. Crazy town right? Not many come to mind, but they could try CO, Prod, SS, Rev and PCC. Hell, L-10 nationals was won once using minor shoot that, beat 4 guys and you can probably be the Area champion. 

 

Use less powder, lower the PF, and shoot the same $10,000 gun and still be competitive.  PF segmentation and scoring are ridiculous, period.

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2 hours ago, sc68cal said:

I too would put a quarter into a machine that kicks me in the groin.

most people will put a quarter in a machine if it kicks someone else in the groin.......

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Just now, Overscore said:

 

Use less powder, lower the PF, and shoot the same $10,000 gun and still be competitive.  PF segmentation and scoring are ridiculous, period.

Do you even know anything about Open guns? They are built and tuned to run MAJOR. You can’t just load mouse fart loads and stick them in an Open gun.. 

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Back to the progression of Carry Optics division in its formative years. I remember hearing the joke it was just another version of Open. Do we feel that same way today??

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3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Do you even know anything about Open guns? They are built and tuned to run MAJOR. You can’t just load mouse fart loads and stick them in an Open gun.. 

 

That must be why there's no such thing as open minor.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Another option, guys who don't want to shoot major could just pick a division where they can be competitive with minor. Crazy town right? Not many come to mind, but they could try CO, Prod, SS, Rev and PCC. Hell, L-10 nationals was won once using minor shoot that, beat 4 guys and you can probably be the Area champion. 

None of those are limited minor.  You can't keep selling Model Ts to people that want Chevrolets.

 

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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Back to the progression of Carry Optics division in its formative years. I remember hearing the joke it was just another version of Open. Do we feel that same way today??

 

Yes, especially after the de facto removal of the weight restrictions has everyone running out to buy brass grips, cram tungsten in every nook and cranny they can find, and buy silly *thumb rest [generic]* slide stops. It _used_ to be a joke that you'd say just to see if you could get a rise out of folks... "Poor man's open", "welfare open", "cripple optics", etc etc but now the division has become what we joked about.

 

Do I care? No, because I don't have a better solution. It's not like putting anyone who wants to run a dot for their non-racegun pistol into Open minor was going to get people to keep coming back. They'd shoot a match, pull up their results, see how they got crushed by going in the division that the most dedicated shooters compete in, see how tiny their percentage is compared to the guy who probably won the whole match, and say "yeah that was fun I'd love to drive 3 hours each way, stand around for 8 hours, and shoot for 200 seconds, all over again next weekend"

 

People talk about how "oh, everyone's so entitled these days, everyone wants a participation trophy, back in my day when there were no divisions and we run what we brung, and men were real men" and completely miss the fact that selection bias has eliminated anyone who went to a match, got their ass kicked, said "to hell with this, I can go do something else with my time that is more enjoyable." Those people left and never came back. We all have a fixed amount of free time, and we aren't going to spend it in something that we don't enjoy.

 

Having more divisions means that people are competing with other competitors who are running similar sets of equipment. That means, they'll see that the only thing that separates them from the person winning their division is just time and effort to improve themselves. That's a lot easier pill to swallow when you come back from your first match ever, compared to "I suck, why am I even doing this, the dudes winning this are running around with $10,000 worth of equipment, why am I even bothering with this stupid sport"

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3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Do you even know anything about Open guns? They are built and tuned to run MAJOR. You can’t just load mouse fart loads and stick them in an Open gun.. 

 

Tell me about it!

 

Honestly, I do not understand what all the fuss is about.  Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  If you elect to shoot Limited minor because all you have is a 9mm, that is your choice.  Shoot it and accept the scoring handicap.  Stop whining about eliminating major just so you can be more competitive.

 

As far as CO goes, it is fine the way it was.  The latest regs set off an arm race, so now people shooting a stock Glock, M&P or XDxx will feel handicapped.

 

Limited major IS harder to shoot than Limited minor.  I could shoot both out of my Limited gun, but chose to shoot major.  I shoot Open major for USPSA and minor for SCSA.  There is a HUGE recoil difference.  What purpose is served by limiting Open to minor, other than letting some cheapscate with a plastic CO gun compete in Open.

 

If you want to be competitive in a current Division, man up and buy the right tools.  Otherwise stay home and knit.

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On 8/19/2020 at 12:25 PM, shred said:

 

 

USPSA year-end presentation.  https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20200214_2 Mike Foley 2020 Presentation.pdf

You might need to be signed in to see it.  The stats I was looking at are around page 18 or so.

 

As I read it, even if every single non-member shot Lim Minor, that still leaves many thousand USPSA members shooting it.

 

 

 

 

I've seen this also and looked into it (briefly) myself, and while the outright stats are true, it's the bottom 50% of finishers at matches padding that stat. Is that because it's newbies shooting their G17 with stock mags or because 9mm is actually preferred? I don't know, but definitely no one is winning that way. 

Should we do something about it to make it more welcoming? I don't have a problem with it. It would let those 3gun weirdos and other people who bought the wrong gun (Tanfo or CZTS or Edge 9mm shooters I'm looking at you) not get torched at matches. I don't think we need another division though, there are already too many. 

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2 hours ago, zzt said:

Honestly, I do not understand what all the fuss is about.  Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  If you elect to shoot Limited minor because all you have is a 9mm, that is your choice.  Shoot it and accept the scoring handicap.  Stop whining about eliminating major just so you can be more competitive.

 

If you want to be competitive in a current Division, man up and buy the right tools.  Otherwise stay home and knit.

 

I don't think that's necessarily the only possible reason people would like to do away with power factor.  I can say that, because it's not my reason.  I don't really care about being competitive.  There will always be people I shoot better than and people who I shoot better than.  That's all fine.  All I want is to shoot as well as I can as an individual.  The major/minor thing is just an unnecessary categorization.

  • Open minor
  • Open major
  • Limited minor
  • Limited major
  • Revolver minor
  • Revolver major
  • Single stack minor
  • Single stack major
  • Carry Optics [minor]
  • Production [minor]
  • PCC [minor]

(Forget L10.  That shouldn't exist on Earth.)

 

When I get elected in November, we'll have:

  • Open
  • Limited
  • Carry Optics
  • Revolver

 

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55 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

I don't think that's necessarily the only possible reason people would like to do away with power factor.  I can say that, because it's not my reason.  I don't really care about being competitive.  There will always be people I shoot better than and people who I shoot better than.  That's all fine.  All I want is to shoot as well as I can as an individual.  The major/minor thing is just an unnecessary categorization.

  • Open minor
  • Open major
  • Limited minor
  • Limited major
  • Revolver minor
  • Revolver major
  • Single stack minor
  • Single stack major
  • Carry Optics [minor]
  • Production [minor]
  • PCC [minor]

(Forget L10.  That shouldn't exist on Earth.)

 

When I get elected in November, we'll have:

  • Open
  • Limited
  • Carry Optics
  • Revolver

 

 

Production is still popular(ish) and can absorb SS into it and still be fine

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14 minutes ago, shred said:

So why revolver and not something like single-stack since there are way more stackers than revos?

 

 

For my reelection campaign, I'll merge revolvers into limited.  I figure you basically have guns that are just all out craziness (open), guns that people can reasonably carry and shoot without having to have fancy shirts, and then that same category, but with an optic.

 

 

Uh oh, there's a problem.  There's at least one person in Pennsylvania with an optic on his revolver!  Pffft, open.

 

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1 hour ago, Overscore said:

 

I don't think that's necessarily the only possible reason people would like to do away with power factor.  I can say that, because it's not my reason.  I don't really care about being competitive.  There will always be people I shoot better than and people who I shoot better than.  That's all fine.  All I want is to shoot as well as I can as an individual.  The major/minor thing is just an unnecessary categorization.

  • Open minor
  • Open major
  • Limited minor
  • Limited major
  • Revolver minor
  • Revolver major
  • Single stack minor
  • Single stack major
  • Carry Optics [minor]
  • Production [minor]
  • PCC [minor]

(Forget L10.  That shouldn't exist on Earth.)

 

When I get elected in November, we'll have:

  • Open
  • Limited
  • Carry Optics
  • Revolver

 

 

This whole subdivision exists only in your head.

 

There is no "limited minor", "open minor", or "revolver minor" or "single stack minor".  It's how you get scored.  Period.  End of story.

 

I'm not sure why your state of confusion over what minor SCORING is justifies screwing with the rules one more time.

 

Good luck in the election.  You'll need it.

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3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Production is still popular(ish) and can absorb SS into it and still be fine

 

It definitely is, but I think the distinction between limited and production is unnecessary.  (I failed to mention that there'd be no such thing as downloading magazines, so the distinction with fully loaded mags is unnecessary, IMO.)

 

Crazy guns

normal guns

normal guns with optics

Revolvers

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2 hours ago, Overscore said:
14 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Production is still popular(ish) and can absorb SS into it and still be fine

 

It definitely is, but I think the distinction between limited and production is unnecessary.

 

I think you are both nuts.  You cannot effectively merge any of those Divisions, especially with full mag rules.  That tells all the SS shooters to stay home, because 8 rounds vs. 17 or more is a distinct disadvantage.  SS minor won't do because a 10-round mag won't fit in the box.   Merging Limited is just as silly.  Those shooters will simply download to minor and wipe everyone up.

 

And while you are being silly, since you want to allow single action in Production, why not CO?

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10 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I think you are both nuts.  You cannot effectively merge any of those Divisions, especially with full mag rules.  That tells all the SS shooters to stay home, because 8 rounds vs. 17 or more is a distinct disadvantage.  SS minor won't do because a 10-round mag won't fit in the box.   Merging Limited is just as silly.  Those shooters will simply download to minor and wipe everyone up.

 

And while you are being silly, since you want to allow single action in Production, why not CO?

 

Oh, definitely any action would be fine in CO.

 

Again, the categories are basically:

 

Ridiculous guns (open)

Normal guns (any non-open pistol, even a little 25 caliber prostitute pistol if you prefer)

Normal guns with optics

Revolvers for the boomers

 

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8 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

Oh, definitely any action would be fine in CO.

 

Again, the categories are basically:

 

Ridiculous guns (open)

Normal guns (any non-open pistol, even a little 25 caliber prostitute pistol if you prefer)

Normal guns with optics

Revolvers for the boomers

 

I assume you are also getting rid of power factor scoring at the same time? would 25cal be ok in all divisions?

 

with the above assumptions you have just made ALL guns currently used in USPSA competition non competitive with the new high cap 25cal 40PF guns that hold 40+ rounds that would be developed in short order.

 

actually the above would not really happen, the sport would die almost instantly 

 

 

good luck 

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Here's what we do, no more divisions just run what ever you want. At check in you'll get your trophy, sort of like running a marathon. Just by showing up you're already a winner. 

 

If we have 13 divisions like SC and 6 classifications we're already going to have 78 winners. May as well just let everyone win. 

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33 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I assume you are also getting rid of power factor scoring at the same time? would 25cal be ok in all divisions?

 

with the above assumptions you have just made ALL guns currently used in USPSA competition non competitive with the new high cap 25cal 40PF guns that hold 40+ rounds that would be developed in short order.

 

actually the above would not really happen, the sport would die almost instantly 

 

 

good luck 

A 22LR division would be kinda cool for kids except for the obvious steel knock-down issue and even calling hits in heavily pasted targets. A nice pipe dream, though.

 

Back on topic, I shoot CO and I like it the way it is. I don't want SA guns in the division because soon everyone would have 2011s. I think some of the new rules like weight are silly, but if someone wants to chase 59oz instead of practicing, that's fine. I was not very interested in the division when it was 10rd, but would have been just as happy if it were factory capacity vs 140mm. I don't really like dealing with basepads and frequently use standard mags if my stage plan allows for it. The big sticks only come out as necessary. 

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47 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I assume you are also getting rid of power factor scoring at the same time? would 25cal be ok in all divisions?

 

with the above assumptions you have just made ALL guns currently used in USPSA competition non competitive with the new high cap 25cal 40PF guns that hold 40+ rounds that would be developed in short order.

 

actually the above would not really happen, the sport would die almost instantly 

 

 

good luck 

 

If the gun fits in the box, great.  If people started showing up with those guns, I'd be adding lots of knock down steel to my stages.

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