Custom action differences

[Rick_W]

I am at a point in my life I would like to build a custom gun.  Just because.

 

I may never shoot a competition with it and it may never take it hunting, but it will see some range time.

 

I'm not asking what's the "best" because IMO that is subjective.

 

In no particular order, I'm considering the following:
Terminus Zeus

Seekins Havak

Impact 737R

Bighorn TL3

 

I plan to start with a 6.5 CM as I have a local range with 1000 yard lanes.

 

I want the ability to order a pre-fit shouldered barrel (no barrel nut, I do have Savages) and change it out myself if/when I need to.

 

I haven't decided on a stock or chassis but whichever I choose, I will want to use AICS style mags.  I may be able to pick up a Bergara HMR stock with detachable bottom metal for a good price.

 

I don't know if recoil lug thickness makes a difference.

 

I don't know if having a trigger hanger (or not) makes a difference with stock selection.

 

I don't understand what really differentiates the above actions from each other.

[ltdmstr]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the above.  Decide what features are important to you, then make a small chart and check off who offers what you want.  You can also weight the features if some are more important than others.  What I look for is integral recoil lug, integral rail with 20 MOA elevation (I would highly recommend if you're planning on 1k+), one piece bolt, M16-type extractor, and AICS magazines.  Although not on your list, for me the best choice is Defiance Deviant.  In fact, that's what I just built up with a Foundation stock, Hawkins DBM, Proof cf barrel, Spuhr mount, NF 5-25 ACTAR, and TT Diamond 2-stage.  Not sure I like the barrel, but wanted to try one out.  Probably switch to Bartlein when it's time for a new one.

[Rick_W]

Thank you.  I'll take a look at the Defiance page again.  There were several selections on that page that I didn't know what to choose on several.

 

As I'm currently overseas and will be for a little while, I can't just pick up the phone and call places to ask questions.

 

Does recoil lug thickness make a difference in stock selection?

 

Also, I think I understand that a trigger hanger  makes replacing a trigger easier/more convenient.  Does the use of the trigger hanger make an impact/difference in stock selection?

[ltdmstr]

When blueprinting a R700 it's pretty much standard procedure to use a heavy recoil lug.  Not sure how much difference that makes with any of the short action cartridges, but it certainly doesn't hurt.  Most custom actions have an integral lug, so this shouldn't be an issue.  On the trigger, most/all R700 clones have a slot in the action for the trigger assembly which is held in place with two pins.  So you can change triggers in about 2 minutes once the action's removed from the stock.  Doesn't get much easier than that.

[ranger]

I would also research concept of buying a donor Tikka and using the Tikka action. Prefits are now available for Tikkas. I just built a 223 trainer on a Savage action and i was amazed how easy the barrel swap is and that 26 inch 1-7 223 Wylde shoots great with 75 and 80 ELDMs plus 80 SMKs.

[doc88]

Terminus Zeus has become very popular on the other rifle forums and resale is probably better than the others listed. Bighorn has it's following as well. I have Defiance in various configurations on most of my rifles depending on use. All will do well with a CM but  think about resale value if you ever plan to move it. 

[Rick_W]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:27 AM, ltdmstr said:

When blueprinting a R700 it's pretty much standard procedure to use a heavy recoil lug.  Not sure how much difference that makes with any of the short action cartridges, but it certainly doesn't hurt.  Most custom actions have an integral lug, so this shouldn't be an issue.  On the trigger, most/all R700 clones have a slot in the action for the trigger assembly which is held in place with two pins.  So you can change triggers in about 2 minutes once the action's removed from the stock.  Doesn't get much easier than that.

Thank you.  Did not realize the trigger was built that way.  I've only experienced swapping out triggers on ARs.

[Rick_W]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:57 AM, ranger said:

I would also research concept of buying a donor Tikka and using the Tikka action. Prefits are now available for Tikkas. I just built a 223 trainer on a Savage action and i was amazed how easy the barrel swap is and that 26 inch 1-7 223 Wylde shoots great with 75 and 80 ELDMs plus 80 SMKs.

I've done the barrel swap on a Savage.  Savages have been really nice in the accuracy department from my experience.  The problem lies in aftermarket accessories, especially for short-action Savages.  Savage has changed so much over the years you have to be really careful ordering stocks, and the selection is still not all that great and costs more than stocks for Rem footprint actions.  Aftermarket trigger selection is not as good either.

 

The only Tika I've handled is the .22LR.  It is nice.

[Rick_W]

2 hours ago, doc88 said:

Terminus Zeus has become very popular on the other rifle forums and resale is probably better than the others listed. Bighorn has it's following as well. I have Defiance in various configurations on most of my rifles depending on use. All will do well with a CM but  think about resale value if you ever plan to move it. 

Appreciate the information.  I don't often figure resale into things as I have a difficult time selling, even if I don't use them.

I'm not in a position to try the various actions to feel a difference.  With C-19, it's no telling when I'll get to come back to the states and I don't know how much time I'll have there when I do.

I don't know if I could "feel" the difference between a Terminus Zeus and a Terminus Apollo.

I've also just discovered Wolf Performance with their BAT actions.  It has the Remington lever throw (as do the Seekins, Impact and Bighorn actions) so I don't know how I would feel about that compared to the shorter throw of the Terminus/Curtis actions.  All of my experience has been behind a Savage and a Ruger.

[427Cobra]

I am a huge fan of Impact Actions, I also love the fact that just about anyone of us can swap the barrels out which are available on there website.

Edited August 4, 2020 by 427Cobra

[Rick_W]

11 hours ago, 427Cobra said:

I am a huge fan of Impact Actions, I also love the fact that just about anyone of us can swap the barrels out which are available on there website.

 

I mean this as no offense to you or anyone else, but very few people have been be able to tell me the difference between an action they have/like versus another action.  I get a lot of people telling me they love their action, but not what makes it different from any other action.  Is this because they don't have experience with another action?  Is it because there are no real differences except "feel", which is not measurable and can be subjective?

 

Bolt throw is measurable - why would a person choose 90° over 70° or 60°, or vice versa?

 

Extractors and ejectors - why choose a mini M-16 versus a claw-type extractor or something else?

 

Why choose an integral recoil lug over a pinned recoil lug?

 

Why choose a pinned and screwed rail over an integral rail or vice versa?

 

What does it mean "accepts BDL bottom metal" or "does not accept BDL bottom metal" mean?

 

I appreciate the feedback.  Still learning.

[427Cobra]

19 hours ago, Rick_W said:

 

I mean this as no offense to you or anyone else, but very few people have been be able to tell me the difference between an action they have/like versus another action.  I get a lot of people telling me they love their action, but not what makes it different from any other action.  Is this because they don't have experience with another action?  Is it because there are no real differences except "feel", which is not measurable and can be subjective?

 

Bolt throw is measurable - why would a person choose 90° over 70° or 60°, or vice versa?

 

Extractors and ejectors - why choose a mini M-16 versus a claw-type extractor or something else?

 

Why choose an integral recoil lug over a pinned recoil lug?

 

Why choose a pinned and screwed rail over an integral rail or vice versa?

 

What does it mean "accepts BDL bottom metal" or "does not accept BDL bottom metal" mean?

 

I appreciate the feedback.  Still learning.

Bolt throw is no big deal, I don't see a difference in speed or accuracy, the Gap Tempest has a 60 degree throw, and a 3 lug bolt, Impact/Defiance/Surgeon have whatever degree and 2 lug bolts.

 

Ejectors are all the same, but extractors are either Rem or M16, I have never broken either so those are a wash

 

The integral recoil lug adds a lot of strength, a pinned lug works but no way is 2 pieces stronger than 1, also more barrel shank is in the receiver which may help with rigidity as things heat up

 

BDL bottom metal are a stock Rem700 hinged bottom metal, usually the internal mag holds 3-5 rounds, so any AICS bottom metal or stock that uses AICS mags will work, AIAX mags require different rails for the bolt, I also see more issues with AIAX mags versus AICS mags in Rem pattern actions, in a dedicated AI rifle they are flawless

Edited August 6, 2020 by 427Cobra

[Rick_W]

7 hours ago, 427Cobra said:

Bolt throw is no big deal, I don't see a difference in speed or accuracy, the Gap Tempest has a 60 degree throw, and a 3 lug bolt, Impact/Defiance/Surgeon have whatever degree and 2 lug bolts.

 

Ejectors are all the same, but extractors are either Rem or M16, I have never broken either so those are a wash

 

The integral recoil lug adds a lot of strength, a pinned lug works but no way is 2 pieces stronger than 1, also more barrel shank is in the receiver which may help with rigidity as things heat up

 

BDL bottom metal are a stock Rem700 hinged bottom metal, usually the internal mag holds 3-5 rounds, so any AICS bottom metal or stock that uses AICS mags will work, AIAX mags require different rails for the bolt, I also see more issues with AIAX mags versus AICS mags in Rem pattern actions, in a dedicated AI rifle they are flawless

Thank you.

[JBova]

I use a Bighorn TL3 for my match rifle and it’s been great. The controlled round feed really helps with feeding the 6br cased cartridges without issue. Also having the changeable bolt face is a really nice feature too. You can go from shooting 223 to 6.5cm or 6.5prc just by changing the barrel and bolt face.  

[TRG65]

I'll differ with the above comment that bolt throw is no big deal.  For me it is a primary consideration, and for a few years I've only looked at <90 deg actions.  I have several with 90 deg, both Rem and custom, mostly those are for other family members.  They are a bit easier to unlock, however, I consistently mash my thumb on my switch view and more than once have ended up with a skinned knuckle on a 90 deg action.  Either can be run very fast and the 90s tend to have a bit easier/smoother bolt lift, but the difference isn't enough to overcome the efficiency gained and, for me, the safety factor with the 60 deg actions.  I have been looking at getting a new action and I've decided on the terminus.  I like the Curtis too, and have seriously thought about buying an mpa production rifle that comes with the Curtis action.  

[pig4bill]

On 8/20/2020 at 12:09 PM, TRG65 said:

I'll differ with the above comment that bolt throw is no big deal.  For me it is a primary consideration, and for a few years I've only looked at <90 deg actions.  I have several with 90 deg, both Rem and custom, mostly those are for other family members.  They are a bit easier to unlock, however, I consistently mash my thumb on my switch view and more than once have ended up with a skinned knuckle on a 90 deg action.  Either can be run very fast and the 90s tend to have a bit easier/smoother bolt lift, but the difference isn't enough to overcome the efficiency gained and, for me, the safety factor with the 60 deg actions.  I have been looking at getting a new action and I've decided on the terminus.  I like the Curtis too, and have seriously thought about buying an mpa production rifle that comes with the Curtis action.  

I have one, and the thing that hooked me was the "feel" of the action. I wasn't looking for a rifle that expensive, but after playing with it, I knew I would always want to get one. Recoil lug, I don't care. None of the custom actions is going to have a recoil lug that isn't rigid or "strong" enough. The Pic rail on top, the advantage/disadvantage of integral is obvious. It won't come off. If you have one, no worries that it will loosen. Also no ability to change it if you want one with a different angle.

 

Mauser claw extractor? They can be wobbly and not as smooth as a round bolt, just not a fan. BTW, Terminus was started by the Curtis action designer, so Terminus and Curtis have a lot of similarities.

 

The Tikka option is worth exploring. West Desert Shooter on youtube went through a lot of variations with his. It's quite a long range blaster now. They are also very smooth, though not as much as the Curtis, and have a 70 degree bolt throw iirc. Lots of stock options are available, a chassis or GRS Berserk or Bifrost.

[EfRed]

Comment on bolt throw angle:  I like a 60 degree or less bolt throw, because it keeps the thumb or other hand parts away from the scope.  Quicker due to reduced motion, quicker due to not having to consciously avoid scope interference.  A 60 degree bolt is harder to crank, since the same amount of work must be done over a shorter path.  Terminus has addressed this by super-slicking the cocking elements and by using a roller bearing.   

[K-Tex]

Gunwerks Ti will be my next purchase

[FlightMurse]

I went with a Bighorn TL3 and I would order one again in a heart beat. I could care less on degree of bolt throw, the things that I wanted were controlled round feed, ability to get shouldered pre-fit barrels, and easily swapped bolt heads. I have a .223 trainer barrel and a 6 creed match barrel, and I can swap them out at the range if I needed to. This allowed me to buy higher end components (trigger, optic, etc.) and just adjust the scope for different barrels. If you shoot out a barrel, order one from proof research and screw it on when it gets there. I am sure any of the other actions would work equally well. 

 

Another benefit of ordering an action and assembling it yourself, is you can get a pork sword chassis and make an 8" .300 blk pistol. 

[SneakyPayload]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:06 PM, Rick_W said:

I am at a point in my life I would like to build a custom gun.  Just because.

 

I may never shoot a competition with it and it may never take it hunting, but it will see some range time.

 

I'm not asking what's the "best" because IMO that is subjective.

 

In no particular order, I'm considering the following:
Terminus Zeus

Seekins Havak

Impact 737R

Bighorn TL3

 

I plan to start with a 6.5 CM as I have a local range with 1000 yard lanes.

 

I want the ability to order a pre-fit shouldered barrel (no barrel nut, I do have Savages) and change it out myself if/when I need to.

 

I haven't decided on a stock or chassis but whichever I choose, I will want to use AICS style mags.  I may be able to pick up a Bergara HMR stock with detachable bottom metal for a good price.

 

I don't know if recoil lug thickness makes a difference.

 

I don't know if having a trigger hanger (or not) makes a difference with stock selection.

 

I don't understand what really differentiates the above actions from each other.

 

i just bought a 737 from impact, and the reason being is everyone chambers a prefit barrel for it. Manners chassis, action, action wrench and action vise from brownells, and you are gtg. Pick up a couple different barrels and send it. 

[SneakyPayload]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:01 PM, FlightMurse said:

I went with a Bighorn TL3 and I would order one again in a heart beat. I could care less on degree of bolt throw, the things that I wanted were controlled round feed, ability to get shouldered pre-fit barrels, and easily swapped bolt heads. I have a .223 trainer barrel and a 6 creed match barrel, and I can swap them out at the range if I needed to. This allowed me to buy higher end components (trigger, optic, etc.) and just adjust the scope for different barrels. If you shoot out a barrel, order one from proof research and screw it on when it gets there. I am sure any of the other actions would work equally well. 

 

Another benefit of ordering an action and assembling it yourself, is you can get a pork sword chassis and make an 8" .300 blk pistol. 

The bighorn actions are really great. They put out an awesome product. 

[usmc1974]

I know it is not a custom action, I got a mossberg MVP LR 6.5 Creedmoor Shot 5 rounds into a quarter inch at a 100 yd then a 1/2 then a few at 3/4 . Just saying. That said you have the best reason to get a new rifle "just because" love it!!

Edited April 9, 2022 by usmc1974