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Very bad leading with coated bullets


Sean_Doe

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I do not know if all CZ85"s shoot this well or if that gun was a fluke. It had the CGW bushing in it but nothing else besides trigger work. 

20 yards, the optic is the triangle style, was amazed both at the gun and at how well you could shoot using the tip of the triangle. 147 SNS TC 0.356

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12 hours ago, jpm2953 said:

Didn’t mean to hit reply yet..... 

 

the FCD will swage your bullets down. My .356” bullets were .354” after I pulled them. Switched to the Dillon crimp die and all my problems went away 

I’m using a lee factory crimp die. I pulled some bullets they still measured .356. I’m nearly crimping them though. 

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1 hour ago, Sean_Doe said:

I’m using a lee factory crimp die. I pulled some bullets they still measured .356.

 

Given that Speer and Montana Gold bullets are sold at 0.355, I am wondering what a good rule of thumb would be for 'swaged enough to cause a problem', realizing that beyond a rule of thumb it would likely be gun specific. 

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5 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Given that Speer and Montana Gold bullets are sold at 0.355, I am wondering what a good rule of thumb would be for 'swaged enough to cause a problem', realizing that beyond a rule of thumb it would likely be gun specific. 

Keep in mind that jacketed or plated is a different animal than coated. 

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I had the worst time with leading in my Sig 320 X5 until I found out what somebody mentioned earlier...the case swaging the bullets down when I loaded them. Bought a Lee expander die and put a NOE plug in it (don't remember the diameter right off the top of my head) and the leading stopped instantly. For the longest time I didn't think I was getting the coating process right with Hi-tek but then I learned about the swaging. It also helped that I started sizing bullets to .358 after I had coated them.  Previously, I had tried molds that were throwing bullets at .355-.356 and the case was swaging them down to .354 sometimes.  

See if that expander die and plug doesn't fix it for you.  

 

Edited by Esquire
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10 hours ago, Esquire said:

I had the worst time with leading in my Sig 320 X5 until I found out what somebody mentioned earlier...the case swaging the bullets down when I loaded them. Bought a Lee expander die and put a NOE plug in it (don't remember the diameter right off the top of my head) and the leading stopped instantly. For the longest time I didn't think I was getting the coating process right with Hi-tek but then I learned about the swaging. It also helped that I started sizing bullets to .358 after I had coated them.  Previously, I had tried molds that were throwing bullets at .355-.356 and the case was swaging them down to .354 sometimes.  

See if that expander die and plug doesn't fix it for you.  

 

The bullets I pulled still measure .356. They are 356 bullets. Should I still get rid of my FCD?

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Ifyour FCD isn't causing you any issues, and you like it, keep it. 

 

I'd still check it often though, because 9mm cases vary in thickness.  If you perform the same measurement with thicker pieces of brass, you may get different results.  

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Double tap...  

 

Make sure the coating isn't cracked where the case mouth is crimped into the bullet.  Once you get leading started, it continues to build up...  

 

 

Edited by Ken6PPC
Double Tap
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Why not test other manufactures coated bullets to see if it produces the same leading issue? It seems like you have ruled out all other factors so far. If the bullets are crap then take that up with the manufacture.

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One other trick is loaded jacketed on the top of every mag. The jacketed will blow the lead out and keep the barrel cleanish. That would at least be something to do to get rid of those bullets. That's an old school trick and while not Optimum it will work

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On 7/29/2020 at 7:52 PM, jpm2953 said:

Didn’t mean to hit reply yet..... 

 

the FCD will swage your bullets down. My .356” bullets were .354” after I pulled them. Switched to the Dillon crimp die and all my problems went away 

 

I have a bad case of leading.  This post is really helpful!  I'm also using the Dillon crimp die.  I pulled some of my 0.356 dia reloads and they are 0.354.  I will adjust my crimp and make sure the size is correct.  Hopefully that will stop the leading.

 

I adjusted and rechecked.  Even without any crimping, the rounds come off the press at .380 mouth OD.  I added a touch of crimp to keep it in spec and rechecked my bullets.  They are still 0.356 dia now! Just need to load and shoot to see if the leading is gone. 

Edited by jwhittin
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I’m starting to think the leading issue is a fault in the DG bullets. I went shooting today and used my aftermarket glock 19 barrel with regular cut rifling and the same ammo leaded the heck out of the barrel also. The shot some 147Fp dg bullets as well. They leaded also bit not quite as fast. Im having no issues with blue bullet 147s and 125s out of any of my glocks. My friend is going to lend me some Precision  Bullets to try. Ill let you know how they work. Thanks for all y’all’s input. 

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2 hours ago, Sean_Doe said:

I’m starting to think the leading issue is a fault in the DG bullets. I went shooting today and used my aftermarket glock 19 barrel with regular cut rifling and the same ammo leaded the heck out of the barrel also. The shot some 147Fp dg bullets as well. They leaded also bit not quite as fast. Im having no issues with blue bullet 147s and 125s out of any of my glocks. My friend is going to lend me some Precision  Bullets to try. Ill let you know how they work. Thanks for all y’all’s input. 

I decided to try some Brazos bullets last year. They leaded every gun I own. I think they were too soft. Might be a bad batch of the DG bullets. 

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12 hours ago, Cuz said:

What is the main problem with leading? Is it an accuracy, reliability, or safety issue?

 

You tend to start throwing curve balls. 

 

In Glock barrels leading is blamed for Ka-booms, the book "The Glock in competition" describes testing they did to explore why burst barrels were sometimes reported. With traditional rifling  I am not aware of a safety issue. 

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I’m sorry, it wasn’t intentional. I’ve been shooting Glock barrels for many years and rarely ever clean them. I’ve always shot copper plated bullets and never had a kaboom. Now that I’m about to switch to coated bullets I’m starting to pay more attention to threads that mention them. As I was reading this one I got to wondering why leading might be an issue.

Now it seems like it could be a safety issue which means I will have to decide if I like the trade off between saving $20/k bullets but having to clean guns more often.

Or, with the right coated bullet, loaded and crimped correctly, will I not get any leading so I can save money on bullets, and still not have to clean my guns very often.

I did not intend to throw in a curve ball, I thought it was a relevant question. Sorry.


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Based on testing with a borescope and an Outers Foul Out bore cleaner we have yet to find a Hi Tek or proprietary  polymer coated lead bullet that doesn't have some degree of leading depite all the loading techniques and component options available.

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1 hour ago, Cuz said:

I’m sorry, it wasn’t intentional. I’ve been shooting Glock barrels for many years and rarely ever clean them. I’ve always shot copper plated bullets and never had a kaboom. Now that I’m about to switch to coated bullets I’m starting to pay more attention to threads that mention them. As I was reading this one I got to wondering why leading might be an issue.

Now it seems like it could be a safety issue which means I will have to decide if I like the trade off between saving $20/k bullets but having to clean guns more often.

Or, with the right coated bullet, loaded and crimped correctly, will I not get any leading so I can save money on bullets, and still not have to clean my guns very often.

I did not intend to throw in a curve ball, I thought it was a relevant question. Sorry.


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I shoot G17s with OEM barrels, I've shot cast lubed, and cast coated bullets almost exclusively, well over 90% of total volume. Aside from during load development and bullet experiments (I cast my own sometimes) I've never had bad leading. I go 2-5k between cleanings with normal shooting and then just because it's been a while not because they need it with no extra steps to remove lead fouling. Test, figure out what's happening and why, then fix it. Inspect occasionally.

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13 hours ago, PhotoRecon said:

Based on testing with a borescope and an Outers Foul Out bore cleaner we have yet to find a Hi Tek or proprietary  polymer coated lead bullet that doesn't have some degree of leading depite all the loading techniques and component options available.

 

I beleive this.  

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On 8/2/2020 at 9:14 AM, PhotoRecon said:

Based on testing with a borescope and an Outers Foul Out bore cleaner we have yet to find a Hi Tek or proprietary  polymer coated lead bullet that doesn't have some degree of leading depite all the loading techniques and component options available.

 

That is interesting. For the gun/load combinations that seems to run forever without needing lead removal I assume there is initial leading and then the build up remains about constant? 

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This photo is only about 50 rounds of DG bullets. I bought 115s and 147s from them they lead up both my glock barrels and my aftermarket cut rifled barrels very fast. I feel like more than 100 round Im getting into the danger zone. It is very hard to clean out the lead. Ive shot a few hundred Blue Bullets and Precision Bullets Through my glock 34 gen 4 without cleaning with zero visible lead. Ive tried to contact DG Bullets and have got no response. 

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I have a Team Match 45 ACP with 26,000+ of hard cast LSWC wax lubed without cleaning the barrel...just the rest of the pistol...no problemo...fouling is there but just seems to stay at a fixed level...can't explain why...

 

Both Schuemann barrels and Atlas Gun works have posted articles about not cleaning the barrel...I agree with them and found their theory to be true...

 

Of course these are not the same Glock barrel type the OP is using...

 

Quote from Schuemann barrels...

 

"My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets..."

 

Edited by PhotoRecon
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My issues were solved 95% with .358 size Precisions.  I say 95% because exactly as PhotoRecon noted, there is always a little something left in the barrel.  Also, loading .358s in 9mm cases presents its own problems.  Works good with the correct NOE expander, but then brass headstamps come into play, with some of the harder, less ductile brands not providing enough tension after expansion, not to mention case gauging in some cases.  I never had a .356 bullet not lead my .3555 barrels, so never even considered the .356 Precisions.  I'm back to RMR heavy plate and FMJs.  The minor savings on coated is not worth the hassles anymore,  and I can't run them in my open gun anyway.   Its so much cleaner and faster loading the RMR stuff, and the guns stay very clean with the heavy plate.  Great people to deal with too.

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On 7/31/2020 at 12:10 PM, RJH said:

One other trick is loaded jacketed on the top of every mag. The jacketed will blow the lead out and keep the barrel cleanish. That would at least be something to do to get rid of those bullets. That's an old school trick and while not Optimum it will work

 

That's a stupid trick that doesn't work.  All it will do is really get that lead pressed into the grooves.  It can also create an over pressure situation if the bore is badly leaded.

 

The reloading writer for one of the major gun rags had an article on this earlier this year.  

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