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BoyGlock

Iron sights, Target focus

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This technique has gained traction nowadays mainly due to a famous present world champion spousing it. I know he and 99% of shooters today use fiber optics so this technique may have grown from it. I understand in mid/longer low risk targets, your target index must be very good to employ this fast but still need to confirm sight slignment albeit target focused. 
My question is, can this be done w/ plain black sights as fast as w/ fiber optics sights?
Have not tried it yet on mid and farther targets as Im in Open now, as my eyes are not so good on irons already, Just interested and might be good to share this w/ younger eyes to learn. 

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Although I do train and shoot a fair amount, I’m definitely NOT a high level shooter (yet, anyway, but working on it LOL), so with that disclaimer...I have Dawson sights on 2 guns - red fiber front and plain/black rear. I have stock CZ white 3 dot sights on a P10C and old/dead Trijicon night sights on an MP (so they basically show as 3 white dots like the CZ). I have Truglo 3 dot night sights on a EDC sig.  And I have all black sights on a SIRT trainer G17.
 

For both target focused and front sight focused shots, I pick up the red fiber Dawson sights by FAR faster than any of the others except in very dim/low light conditions. In low light conditions, I pick up the Truglo’s faster.  My least favorite are the all black sights.  Not saying that others can’t or don’t use a black front sight quickly or effectively. I just personally find it really difficult to find the black front sight quickly.  The results might be different for folks with better vision, higher skill level, or those with color blindness, but I’ve got to think there’s a reason that all the folks I’ve seen who aren’t shooting optics use a fiber front. 

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Sights are personal preference. If plain black is objectively as fast/faster than fiber for a particular shooter, then I don't see why this would change with target focus.

 

For me, I prefer to have a bright front post and noticed that it would drift leftwards for longer shots when I was wearing polarized sunglasses. Switching to Hunter HD Golds mitigated this issue. I only shoot target focused.

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I wonder how accurately one can call the shots w/ not so clear sights and clear focus on mid to far targets. Specially w/ black irons sights.  

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Yes you can do it with plain black sights, it will depend some on your vision I'm 51 and it is getting harder for me to do especially with black sights. To help wear the least shaded glasses you can, you want your pupils to constrict as much as possible for the light conditions, this makes you depth of focus larger allowing for a less out of focus sight picture. 

 

someone once explained the process of paying attention to out of focus sights as the same as looking at a ladies cleavage without looking at it.

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On 7/27/2020 at 8:14 AM, BoyGlock said:

I wonder how accurately one can call the shots w/ not so clear sights and clear focus on mid to far targets. Specially w/ black irons sights.  

In slow fire drills I am more accurate target focused than sight focused regardless of the sights. I believe this is because it is easier to see the spot on the target I am aiming at, if we shot at bullseye targets it would probably be the opposite but we don't.

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2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

someone once explained the process of paying attention to out of focus sights as the same as looking at a ladies cleavage without looking at it.

Im 60 and proven this to myself even without glasses 😁 and it doesnt need any practice to be good at 😁

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2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

In slow fire drills I am more accurate target focused than sight focused regardless of the sights

Yes but the proponents are talking about shooting faster than and as accurate as sight focused and calling shots on farther targets as in 25+yards. Wth my vision now I will be lucky to learn it beyond 10y. Is this new grounds or just not expounded in the past? Or just breaking our self imposed limits? Remember the different sight focus on different target difficulties in Brian’s book? He was not talking slow fire nor bullseye I believe?

This technique if really applicable to most willl change some if not most of how we shoot today. 

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1 hour ago, BoyGlock said:

Yes but the proponents are talking about shooting faster than and as accurate as sight focused and calling shots on farther targets as in 25+yards. Wth my vision now I will be lucky to learn it beyond 10y. Is this new grounds or just not expounded in the past? Or just breaking our self imposed limits? Remember the different sight focus on different target difficulties in Brian’s book? He was not talking slow fire nor bullseye I believe?

This technique if really applicable to most willl change some if not most of how we shoot today. 

Ask Ben Stoeger

 

He does it

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I do this some, it has just been a natural transition.  However i generally do it at closer (10 or so yard) targets.  I can do it at further targets, but usually not at speed.  I reckon if you are like Stoeger and shoot 40-50,000 rounds a year dyrfire a lot it would come much quicker.  My suggestion would to be to try it some and see where you can get away with it and at what speed.  Also I have shot stages where i have done it on the entire stage far targets and steel included, but it just happened without thinking.  

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Posted (edited)

I recall in my ipsc prod and std days Im not so young then at 43-50 at times I shoot close easy static targets and fast swingers at 10y or less w/ focus on target and just the outline of the gun as my sighting system. It just happens w/o any conscious effort. Just as a byproduct of fast shooting. The fast swingers were the biggest factor due to it not waiting for classic sight focus. And still had AC hits. But during those days no one talked about target focus w/ iron sight except in BE book, so I just let them slide. I treated them as just rare serendipity occurences not to be as the norm so i just kept them to myself and trained sight focus all the time. 
Now Im wondering was it the real thing or just being luck? Im not a pro and dont train like one. But i train on my own then and At Most I was A class in Std. And if this is for real, shooters worth their salt should know and be aware of this as they develop. 

Edited by BoyGlock

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57 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Ask Ben Stoeger

 

He does it

Actually he was the one I referred to in this thread. 

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1 hour ago, BoyGlock said:

Actually he was the one I referred to in this thread. 

 

I figured as much.

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14 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

Yes but the proponents are talking about shooting faster than and as accurate as sight focused and calling shots on farther targets as in 25+yards. Wth my vision now I will be lucky to learn it beyond 10y. Is this new grounds or just not expounded in the past? Or just breaking our self imposed limits? Remember the different sight focus on different target difficulties in Brian’s book? He was not talking slow fire nor bullseye I believe?

This technique if really applicable to most willl change some if not most of how we shoot today. 

I was more answering the question can you do it with a BLACK front sight. with a fiber front sight it is much easier to do at speed. 

It sounds like the real question you are asking is should this be taught as the new normal way? I believe the answer to that is no for most and yes for some. Most shooters are not going to put in the work to learn what the actually need to see at range and speed and put enough rounds down to trust it, an average shooter will be able to be successful shooting traditional sight focused on challenging shots without the practice that is required for target focus to feel natural.    

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I forgot to answer part of the OPs question in my response. I do use a fiber optic front sight, and think it would be difficult to do accurate target focused without at least a brightly painted front.  I think the black on black in your peripheral vision would be much harder to discern.  I am at best a low A class shooter, so take my thoughts for what they are worth

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19 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

sounds like the real question you are asking is should this be taught as the new normal way? I believe the answer to that is no for most and yes for some. Most shooters are not going to put in the work to learn what the actually need to see at range and speed and put enough rounds down to trust it, an average shooter will be able to be successful shooting traditional sight focused on challenging shots without the practice that is required for target focus to feel natural.  

So many questions arise from this that I cant say where is the best way to start. 
Like, Is it best to know this earliest so a newbie is aware of it? Or is it a result of intense training that will just manifest later? When I started in this sport I tended to use this on very easy targets at times w/o knowing how and why. But I purposely stayed away coz I thought its not a good habit to develop. Even when I was already more than proficient It just happens in my match runs but I avoided practicing to be good at it. Its just now that  Im trying to validate those experiences so I thought I should develop it but Im in Open now so...

 

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

I forgot to answer part of the OPs question in my response. I do use a fiber optic front sight, and think it would be difficult to do accurate target focused without at least a brightly painted front.  I think the black on black in your peripheral vision would be much harder to discern.  I am at best a low A class shooter, so take my thoughts for what they are worth

Mine was always black on black. In my desire to go fast I aimed w/ the outline of the slide. I sometimes could see the sights but it was only an afterthought, a confirmation as the gun moves in recoil.

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21 minutes ago, BoyGlock said:

 

So many questions arise from this that I cant say where is the best way to start. 
Like, Is it best to know this earliest so a newbie is aware of it? Or is it a result of intense training that will just manifest later? When I started in this sport I tended to use this on very easy targets at times w/o knowing how and why. But I purposely stayed away coz I thought its not a good habit to develop. Even when I was already more than proficient It just happens in my match runs but I avoided practicing to be good at it. Its just now that  Im trying to validate those experiences so I thought I should develop it but Im in Open now so...

 

 

I think a newer competitor should be made aware of all the techniques that have proven successful, each shooter can then use those tools to develop what works best for them. 

 

I guess what I was trying to say is for the casual competitor starting out they should not be told that they need to shoot exactly like Ben or Eric or whoever,  because if you look at just those 2 you will find they use wildly different techniques for both aiming and gripping the gun, and oddly they are both extremely successful. One of the things that make this sport interesting is the fact that there is not one best way to do everything, each shooter gets to try out several successful techniques and decide what parts work best for them.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for all your input guys. One reason for my querries here is,  I have 3 kids presently warming up to the sports. All are into iron sights. Have not decided yet if to introduce this now or later. 

Edited by BoyGlock

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

if you look at just those 2 you will find they use wildly different techniques for both aiming and gripping the gun, and oddly they are both extremely successful.

I read somewhere, Brian wrote, after all the techniques only the shooting matters. Or something to that effect?

Edited by BoyGlock

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Put simply, if you can see the sights aligned on the target that's all you need. Plain black, 3 dot, white outline or fiber optic makes no real difference. fiber optic just makes the sights easier to see in difficult situations, same with 3 dot or white outline. but if you can see them quickly, the alignment is the same.

Practicing your index and keeping the index through target transitions will help more than anything. Keeping the index as you go from one target to the next means when your eyes lock the target and you bring the gun between your eyes and the target, the sights should be in alignment when the gun stops. Then it only takes a millisecond to confirm alignment before you squeeze the trigger.

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Posted (edited)

Confirmation transforms later to trust that they will align. But I did not trust the system. One time I was forced to trust target focus aim by those fast swinger in a match. Two swingers about 7y away and 7y apart activated at the same time by a single popper. One was fast and the other was not slow to me. My ambitious plan was to shoot both in one pass. All others who shot before me did it by the second pass of the other swinger so I was a bit in doubt of my plan. I shot both per plan and to my surprise, aiming w/ just my hands and gun in my perpheral vision while my focus was tracking the moving targets. It scared me a bit after the run but I called the shots thru my slide. Hits were AC AA as I called them. My sights were plain black. But still I was in doubt of the technique as nobody validated it to me. Even the GMs local to me advised the front sight focus all the time and never said about a target focus, so who am I to know otherwise? Maybe it was a secret by those shooting gods not to be known by us mere mortals but now spilled by Ben? Anyway its a bit late for me now in Open... but sometimes I shoot w/ the reddot turned off in practice😁

Edited by BoyGlock

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Maybe what Im trying to impart here is, aiming w/ target focus just happened to me w/o any plans nor intent to use it. While  Ben and his minions are saying now it has to be trained and used w/ intent and on demand. And before them I havent known or read it that way. Big difference to me. 

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