In CO, Why Use a DA/SA Gun?

[Flea]

I'm a new shooter and just shot one USPSA match. I'm leaning towards the CO division given a red dot should be easier on my 58 year old eyes.

 

Anyway, it seems the Shadow 2 is the second most popular gun in CO while the X5 Legion and the G34 are numbers 1 and 3. Sorry for the newbie question, but why do people choose a DA/SA gun instead of a striker fire? Does the Shadow 2 have that much going for it in other areas such that it "erases" any negatives to a DA/SA trigger? Or is a Shadow 2 DA/SA trigger not that much of a problem? It would seem to me that having the same trigger pull on each shot would be preferable to dealing with two different pulls. What am I missing?

 

I've only been shooting since Nov 2019 and most of my time has been on a 1911. I have owned a G19 Gen 4 but have shot it less than 500 rounds and that was years ago.

 

Basically I'm asking should I be considering a striker gun or a Shadow. I know the answer will be shoot both of them but I don't have access to shooting a S2.

 

Thanks

[CClassForLife]

You only need to pull the DA trigger once. All subsequent shots are SA and some people prefer that. Also, it was the hottest production gun when CO started gaining popularity, so it makes sense that people would start shooting CO with whatever they had.

 

All in all, it's just shooter preference.

[BARRYJ]

I bought a Sig 320 Legion just for that reason.  Didn't want the two different trigger pulls.  However, there are plenty good shooter that don't have a problem with the da/sa trigger pull.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

The DA to SA changeup is only a hangup for someone who doesn’t shoot often or practice with that platform frequently. 
 

Competitive shooters do.

The DA/SA trigger mechanism isn’t something you really notice after the first month of consistent use. You’re just used to it.

 

The short version is... in return for one pull that’s long but smooth, you get a crisp beautiful single action trigger for the rest of the stage.

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[Nathanb]

Like MM said it’s not a big deal for that first pull. Under speed you barely even notice it. At first it’s in your head but after enough practice you know it and just blends into the background 

[B_RAD]

two reasons 

 

1. Heavy

2. SA is nice they accept the DA. 
 

 

The S2 is heavy which made it popular in Prod before the X5 came out. 
 

A lot of people are shooting/have them and want to stick with it. It’s a great gun. 
 

you’re correct about the trigger being the same on striker guns but most folks want heavy guns because they feel it helps them with either recoil control or keeping the gun from moving with a poor trigger press. 
 

the DA pull isn’t a big issue. Just train thru it and it not a problem. Or shouldn’t be. 
 

the SA trigger on the CZ is pretty dang nice. So that’s a pro too. 
 

in the end, none of it matters much if someone is willing to really put in some practice with whichever gun they like. Which, most don’t. So,...... heavy
 

now, some will say the striker fired guns aren’t as accurate. I find that to be a trigger pull issue so, we’re back to square one. 
 

 

[IVC]

What they said about DA/SA - you get the SA trigger after the initial pull. But, there is also a trend in DAO strikers to make them essentially SA - since striker is preloaded with the racking of the slide, the trigger can be as short and as light as it needs to be. Just preload it more, to the point where the striker has almost enough energy to ignite the primer without additional input from the trigger. Maybe even beyond that. 

 

It's going to be interesting to see how light/short the competition stirker triggers will go and whether it will take away the market share from the DA/SA. 

[MemphisMechanic]

16 minutes ago, IVC said:

...there is also a trend in DAO strikers to make them essentially SA - since striker is preloaded with the racking of the slide, the trigger can be as short and as light as it needs to be.

I don’t think a tweaked Walther PPQ/Q5 trigger gives anything up to my fully-tuned Tanfoglio trigger on match day. Same with a solid trigger job on the SIG 320-series.
 

Both of these are available in guns that weigh right at what a CZ or Tanfo does. But the DA/SA guns still have dominant market share, which is interesting.

 

Time will tell.

 

In the end it is mostly personal preference, and a question of how well the gun fits your particualr hand size. They’ll all shoot the same score with the same amount of skill & practice. There are lots of guys out there crushing it with Glocks.

 

And don’t forget Nils Jonasson collecting match wins like crazy with a $400 Canik as the ultimate proof that hard work trumps MSRP.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[Boomstick303]

Comfort level from shooter to shooter.  I think most of the metal frame DA/SA guns I see in CO are from guys who were already shooting that same platform or another DA/SA gun.  If someone was shooting any SA striker fired pistol in say production and move to carry optics they are typically adapting what that already had to CO by just putting a dot on it.   I see more new shooters show up with SA striker fired guns.  mainly due to price point of a Striker Fired gun versus most DA/SA guns.  Predominantly the X5 because it competes very well straight out of the box.  I think B_Rad brings up a good point most people don't practice, so the learning curve with a DA/SA pistol would be a lot longer versus say a SA gun for a new shooter.  I think the question any shooter should ask themselves is what their level of participation is going to be and what is their budget.  If you don't intend to practice much and just shoot matches probably go striker fired.  If you plan to practice and have a high level or participation, the budget can swing it DA/SA and you find that gun fits your hand well and is comfortable that might be the ticket.  I would have gone down the CZ path most likely before they had increased the weight limit on CO guns from 45 oz, but I was worried about the slide durability on DA/SA Metal frame guns when they had to be cut up to install a dot.  I opted for the X5 and have too much invested to move onto the CZ platform.  The X5 is not holding me back by any stretch.  To be honest I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer in which way to go.  Like mentioned in many of the posts before this one, it all comes down to practice if you want to improve and shoot any gun well.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by Boomstick303

[B_RAD]

22 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I don’t think a tweaked Walther PPQ/Q5 trigger gives anything up to my fully-tuned Tanfoglio trigger on match day. Same with a solid trigger job on the SIG 320-series.
 

Both of these are available in guns that weigh right at what a CZ or Tanfo does. But the DA/SA guns still have dominant market share, which is interesting.

 

Time will tell.

 

In the end it is mostly personal preference, and a question of how well the gun fits your particualr hand size. They’ll all shoot the same score with the same amount of skill & practice. There are lots of guys out there crushing it with Glocks.

 

And don’t forget Nils Jonasson collecting match wins like crazy with a $400 Canik as the ultimate proof that hard work trumps MSRP.  

A tweaked canik has the best trigger out of any prod/co gun period. it’s as good of not better than any SA steel gun. It’s the same every time. 
 

Not that it matters but it is better. I know “better” is an opinion but it is. 
 

trigger isn’t super important. It’s nice but it’s not the most important thing. Not to me at least. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

A tweaked canik has the best trigger out of any prod/co gun period. it’s as good of not better than any SA steel gun. It’s the same every time. 
 

Not that it matters but it is better. I know “better” is an opinion but it is. 
 

trigger isn’t super important. It’s nice but it’s not the most important thing. Not to me at least. 

Canik's intrigue me a great deal.  Unfortunately just about every Canik I see in a match has had at least one hiccup during the match.  I cannot think of one person shooting them that got through the entire match with out one issue or another.  Is there something you have to do to them to make them more reliable out of the box, or is it something the shooter is probably doing?  I will say just about every Canik I see is being shot by a new shooter, so that might be the issue.

[MikeBurgess]

17 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

trigger isn’t super important. It’s nice but it’s not the most important thing. Not to me at least. 

This ^^^

 

you can run a GLOCK or a Legion or a S2 each has a its strengths and weaknesses, some triggers feel better than others but with some practice it really doesn't mater much at all. 

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

Canik's intrigue me a great deal.  Unfortunately just about every Canik I see in a match has had at least one hiccup during the match.  I cannot think of one person shooting them that got through the entire match with out one issue or another.  Is there something you have to do to them to make them more reliable out of the box, or is it something the shooter is probably doing?  I will say just about every Canik I see is being shot by a new shooter, so that might be the issue.

Out of the box they need all the springs changed. Like most other guns. 
 

It was a pain to find the right recoil spring/guide rod set up. I use a ZRS tactical one for the Q5SF with a 15# Wilson flat wire 1911 spring. 
 

I use a Glock reduced power striker block spring and a 5.5# Glock striker spring. I also added a #1 split ring to the back of the stock trigger return spring. 
 

I also shaved down the ribs on the inside of the grip to help fully loaded mags drop free. This gun is kinda like glocks when you need to drop mags. You really have to hold the gun vertical and get a good press on the mag release. 
 

Every malfunction I’ve had was due to the recoil spring not being heavy enough. The stock set up is pretty stiff so everyone wants to go lighter. The problem is, if it’s not heavy enough it’ll come out of battery when running or might not even close when chambering a new round. Not to mention the striker spring might pull it out of battery if it’s too heavy. All guns have these issues but the caniks lockup is worse and this problem seems to be more of an issue and requires a heavier spring. 
 

My guns run...... now.  
 

 

 

I shot glocks all last year. Did well with them. 
 

I’ve also shot Sig, CZ, Tanfo. Pick the one you like.

Edited July 22, 2020 by B_RAD

[Flea]

17 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Comfort level from shooter to shooter.  I think most of the metal frame DA/SA guns I see in CO are from guys who were already shooting that same platform or another DA/SA gun.  If someone was shooting any SA striker fired pistol in say production and move to carry optics they are typically adapting what that already had to CO by just putting a dot on it.   I see more new shooters show up with SA striker fired guns.  mainly due to price point of a Striker Fired gun versus most DA/SA guns.  Predominantly the X5 because it competes very well straight out of the box.  I think B_Rad brings up a good point most people don't practice, so the learning curve with a DA/SA pistol would be a lot longer versus say a SA gun for a new shooter.  I think the question any shooter should ask themselves is what their level of participation is going to be and what is their budget.  If you don't intend to practice much and just shoot matches probably go striker fired.  If you plan to practice and have a high level or participation, the budget can swing it DA/SA and you find that gun fits your hand well and is comfortable that might be the ticket.  I would have gone down the CZ path most likely before they had increased the weight limit on CO guns from 45 oz, but I was worried about the slide durability on DA/SA Metal frame guns when they had to be cut up to install a dot.  I opted for the X5 and have too much invested to move onto the CZ platform.  The X5 is not holding me back by any stretch.  To be honest I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer in which way to go.  Like mentioned in many of the posts before this one, it all comes down to practice if you want to improve and shoot any gun well.  

 

When people say the X5, I assume they are referring to the X5 Legion. Is that correct? If so, the X5 Legion (at least on Sig's website) has a magwell which I thought was no bueno in CO. Am I mistaken? Thanks.

[George16]

2 minutes ago, Flea said:

 

When people say the X5, I assume they are referring to the X5 Legion. Is that correct? If so, the X5 Legion (at least on Sig's website) has a magwell which I thought was no bueno in CO. Am I mistaken? Thanks.

Yes, you are correct. It’s an X5 legion which comes with a magwell that’s not allowed in CO.

[Flea]

1 minute ago, George16 said:

Yes, you are correct. It’s an X5 legion which comes with a magwell that’s not allowed in CO.

So which P320 is being used in CO?

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Flea said:

So which P320 is being used in CO?

The legion. The magwell is removable 

[George16]

1 minute ago, Flea said:

So which P320 is being used in CO?

X5 legion falls under the P320 series of pistols from Sig. Some competitors also shoot CO or production with the regular P320 series guns which is is totally different from the X series guns.

[Boomstick303]

In our section I do not see many P320s being used in Production if any.  Legion or Poly frame versions.  Almost all CZ it seems, some Walthers.  I believe the reason the Legion comes with the magwell or at least the ability to install a magwell was for IDPA.  It is removable to compete in CO for in USPSA.  I do not believe the magwell that is installed on the Legion is legal for IDPA, which is strange to me, but you can purchase a more slimline version of the magwell from companies like Springer Precision.  At least this is my understanding.  I don't shoot IDPA, so I could be wrong.

 

I do not see anyone shooting poly framed P320s in Carry Optics in our section.  There might be some, I just have not seen any.  All of the guys I know using P320s shooting Carry Optics are using X5 Legions with the magwell removed.  

[Boomstick303]

51 minutes ago, Flea said:

 

When people say the X5, I assume they are referring to the X5 Legion. Is that correct? If so, the X5 Legion (at least on Sig's website) has a magwell which I thought was no bueno in CO. Am I mistaken? Thanks.

 

Magwells are not allowed in Carry Optics, that is why I refuse to call it "Open light" until they do.  I wish they did, I could stop dry firing reloads tomorrow.  The X5 Legion is competely Carry Optics legal once you remove the magwell.  It can be removed with one screw.  The nice thing about the X5 Legion frame is that it is heavy like a steel frame, and its easier to remove material from the inside of the magwell of the frame for carry optics to open the mouth up to make reloads easier.  With the Tungsten infused poly frame and metal magazines it makes for easier reloads.  

 

If you are looking to compete in Carry Optics, and are curious about guns show up to a match if you are not already doing so and ask questions of people shooting the guns you are interested in.  You can pose questions like "I am curious what double action feels like compared to single action on those CZs."  8 out 10 times the guy would probably let you shoot his gun.  Every person I have ever asked to dry fire or shoot their gun out of curiosity has been more than happy to let me.  I would do this for any gun you are interested in before buying.  Especially when you start reaching that $1000 threshold for a pistol.  I have heard some prefer the Poly frame or the original X5 to the X5 Legion because that is their preference.  I own and  shot both in competition and feel the recoil is naturally less with the X5 legion which makes sense due to the weight difference.  I shot and managed the recoil of the Poly X5 just fine, but where I found the X5 Legions easier to shoot was when shooting with one hand.  The added weight allowed the dot to settle easier when shooting with one hand.  Also it would seem the Poly X5 has been discontinued, as Sig would rather have you pay more for the X5 Legion.  To get the Poly X5 you would have to buy the Legion and purchase the Poly fame after the fact or buy on the secondary market.

[Flea]

28 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Magwells are not allowed in Carry Optics, that is why I refuse to call it "Open light" until they do.  I wish they did, I could stop dry firing reloads tomorrow.  The X5 Legion is competely Carry Optics legal once you remove the magwell.  It can be removed with one screw.  The nice thing about the X5 Legion frame is that it is heavy like a steel frame, and its easier to remove material from the inside of the magwell of the frame for carry optics to open the mouth up to make reloads easier.  With the Tungsten infused poly frame and metal magazines it makes for easier reloads.  

 

If you are looking to compete in Carry Optics, and are curious about guns show up to a match if you are not already doing so and ask questions of people shooting the guns you are interested in.  You can pose questions like "I am curious what double action feels like compared to single action on those CZs."  8 out 10 times the guy would probably let you shoot his gun.  Every person I have ever asked to dry fire or shoot their gun out of curiosity has been more than happy to let me.  I would do this for any gun you are interested in before buying.  Especially when you start reaching that $1000 threshold for a pistol.  I have heard some prefer the Poly frame or the original X5 to the X5 Legion because that is their preference.  I own and  shot both in competition and feel the recoil is naturally less with the X5 legion which makes sense due to the weight difference.  I shot and managed the recoil of the Poly X5 just fine, but where I found the X5 Legions easier to shoot was when shooting with one hand.  The added weight allowed the dot to settle easier when shooting with one hand.  Also it would seem the Poly X5 has been discontinued, as Sig would rather have you pay more for the X5 Legion.  To get the Poly X5 you would have to buy the Legion and purchase the Poly fame after the fact or buy on the secondary market.

My first ever gun was a G19 Gen 4 that I got a while back for no real reason. Shot it less than 500 rounds in 7 years. Shot it again in Nov and for whatever reason, fell in love with shooting. Maybe too many Jack Ryan movies. Anyway I thought I'd want a steel gun with a red dot and I ended up buying the P226 Legion RX DA/SA. At the time I bought it, I didn't know enough about guns and basically overlooked whether the gun fit in my hand. I also thought I wouldn't care about a DA/SA action trigger since I can just chamber a round and always be in SA. I soon began eyeing 1911s and their triggers (and living in NJ, I don't care if a gun can hold 20 rounds since we can't have more than 10 rounds). I ended up getting a Wilson Combat CQB 4.25" in 9mm. I love the gun and the trigger and have shot about 4,000 rounds since Jan 2020 (including not being able to shoot it from mid March till a few weeks ago b/c of COVID). Over the past few months I've got pulled into the competitive shooting thing and actually did my first USPSA match in May and it was lots of fun but boy did I suck.

 

So in just 9 months, my focus has shifted a few times as to what I want to do with a gun but I've decided my number one priority will be gun games. The next big decision is dot or no dot. I'm 58 and wear contacts so my vision isn't the best. I can shoot irons but the more I read and listen to, I think going the red dot route is the right call for me (actually anyone with vision issues). So now it's which gun. I'm going to sell the P226 and CQB. I've shot the CQB probably 8x more than the P226. I had to put in the short reach trigger in the P226 in order for me to comfortably reach the trigger for the DA pull. I'm not a fan of the DA pull but I haven't shot as much as the CQB. I have held the Shadow 2 and it fits my had pretty good but the trigger is too far for me in DA so I'd need to get it reduced. I haven't shot it and my LGS doesn't have one to rent. I'm considering the G34 MOS but my LGS doesn't have one to hold or shoot. A friend has the X5 Legion so I will shoot that soon.

 

Going the G34 route, I avoid the whole DA pull and reach issues but it doesn't weigh as much as the Shadow or X5.

[rowdyb]

23 hours ago, Flea said:

Anyway, it seems the Shadow 2 is the second most popular gun in CO while the X5 Legion and the G34 are numbers 1 and 3. Sorry for the newbie question, but why do people choose a DA/SA gun instead of a striker fire? Does the Shadow 2 have that much going for it in other areas such that it "erases" any negatives to a DA/SA trigger? Or is a Shadow 2 DA/SA trigger not that much of a problem? It would seem to me that having the same trigger pull on each shot would be preferable to dealing with two different pulls. What am I missing?

To answer your questions as someone who has shot all 3 of those guns in both Prod and CO to some extent.

1. Their familiarity with a particular platform if they are coming from another division into CO. Find the gun like what you already shoot and just move laterally. It seems CO is pulling people from divisions ans much as it is drawing new people into it as their very first division.

2. When you think of the negative of a DA trigger you think of length of pull and weight. Both those can be made better to such a degree that they become a non issue with a modicum of practice. Where you pick up a DA/SA gun in the gun shop and feel a 13# trigger pull that is horrible you can spend $50 on parts and get a 6# DA trigger pull just doing it in your garage.

2A. That shadow 2 trigger is not that much of a problem. What's everyone's fear? That the first DA trigger pull will be on a 25 yard mini popper. That so rarely happens you don't have to worry about your worst case fear.

3. Age old argument about DA/SA vs Striker. This is all replaced with regular, good training. The recent ipsc trigger pull rule change in ipsc Prod made the striker guns much more reasonable choice, though not a concern for uspsa shoothers.

4. What are you missing? The changes in the division and guns over its short history influencing today's choices. The changes in OEM pistol offerings that work for the division over time. As the guns have to come from the Prod list it would make sense that Prod shooters are a huge cross over market into the division. Now that you can get an Optic Ready Shadow 2 that changed things. Now that you can get a "heavy" striker fired gun (walther sf or x5 legion) that changed things. Now that you can get a cheap gun (canik) that changed things. You now have choices that can be tailored to your preferences and comfort. What seems to matter most in equipment more than the gun are mags that work with 23 rounds every single time, optics that stay in place without shearing screws and dots that work for a whole season on one battery. With Glock, Sig, CZ, Walther and Canik choices that require no milling and have the requisite mag capacity and parts availability it then gets turned back onto you. For you to decide what is best for you, rather than having to decide what you HAVE to shoot.

 

Off topic and personal opinion only:

-i have yet to shoot an OR shadow 2. I have just shot old rule shadow 2's will milling and lightening. both ones i made and others. i stopped using them for CO as I wanted a more turn key solution. now the rules allow the factory gun from cz so i might be interested again.

-the sig x5 worked great. i did't like how far forward in the trigger stroke it broke. the grips shape was a little blocky, though you could rememdy that doing a grip job. i absolutely needed vibra tite to keep a site on that gun.

-my g34 gen5 fs/mos was nice. the screw and plate system needs to be far more robust in my experience. other than that i have only good experiences.

-canik. i've only shot one, a non dot gun. watching them at matches they do seem "fidly" and I have yet to see one run 4 matches in a row without some bug.

-

 

[rowdyb]

5 minutes ago, Flea said:

I'm going to sell the P226

I recently bought a 226 Legion and threw the book at it. I sold it. The DA/SA of those guns even fully modified are still only 60% of what you can accomplish with the Shadow 2 trigger.

[Flea]

19 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I recently bought a 226 Legion and threw the book at it. I sold it. The DA/SA of those guns even fully modified are still only 60% of what you can accomplish with the Shadow 2 trigger.

Interesting observation. Did you care about the weight differences between the 34, X5 and S2?

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, Flea said:

Going the G34 route, I avoid the whole DA pull and reach issues but it doesn't weigh as much as the Shadow or X5.

 

Sounds like you are on the right path. I have seen straight triggers installed in CZs, and it looks like the trigger pull would not be as long for DA.  Maybe someone that has that type of trigger installed can speak to it.  From my understanding Tanfo stock tiggrers DA is not as long as of reach as CZs are, but again I have not compared the two myself so maybe someone who has can speak to that.  @rowdyb is right there are a lot of viable options.  Try as many as you can before you buy.

 

Like i said before.  If the weight limit was 59oz when I got in, I would probably be shooting CZs.  I would have trained to learn to shoot DA/SA.  Those guns dominate production for a reason.  

 

I have started shooting games late as well.  I am 47 and have only been shooting really for the last year.  My eyes have started to go in regards to things up close.  I have read plenty and looked into shooting irons, and there is a large learning curve to find the right glasses, sites etc to shoot irons.  Then there is time it takes to become proficient at shooting irons after figuring out all of that other stuff first.  It's not impossible just very time consuming.  I envy people that shoot irons well and are fast at doing it.  I just don't have that kind of time, so the dot made sense.  Don't get me wrong there is a learning curve with a dot, but in my eyes, its much more compressed than learning irons.  If I had the time and was younger I would have learned to shoot irons then move to a dot.  

 

There was a lot of belly aching when Carry Optics was introduced.  I think it has been great for USPSA.  This allows more people feel they can participate, and possibly compete quicker than if there was no Carry Optics division.  Particularly for older folks, or those who do not have the greatest eye sight.

 

As for the sucking part.  Don't worry 99% of sucked really bad when we started.  Like anything in life if you want to be good, you have to put forth the effort.  I am just glad I get to run around with a blaster and shoot stuff.  I probably would not shoot much if this was not an option.