caspian guy Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 1 hour ago, RangerTrace said: Body armor is all too common these days, so if you're going to the trouble of building/buying an AR, do with a rifle cartridge. This is my EDC backpack gun. LANTAC LA-SF15, 7.5" 300BLK with their BMD. Trace if you don't mind me asking, what load do you use? Link to comment
RangerTrace Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Hornady 110 grain Gmax or is it Vmax?? Link to comment
TonytheTiger Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 6 hours ago, zzt said: FWIW, I would never consider 5.56 or 300 B for home defense. IMO they are much too powerful, and the possibility of unintended consequences is much higher than pistol rounds. As counterintuitive as it sounds, plenty of government agencies with big research budgets have proven this to be false. Link to comment
TonytheTiger Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 4 hours ago, RangerTrace said: Hornady 110 grain Gmax or is it Vmax?? Vmax. All my experience with Vmax bullets says you'll be disappointed if you need to use it against an armored target though. It's a varmint bullet made to explode almost immediately on contact, so it's hell on soft tissue but nothing else. Link to comment
RangerTrace Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Vmax. All my experience with Vmax bullets says you'll be disappointed if you need to use it against an armored target though. It's a varmint bullet made to explode almost immediately on contact, so it's hell on soft tissue but nothing else. I just double checked, it's GMX. I wouldn't expect it to defeat Level III, but any of the soft armor would likely be perforated. Link to comment
TonytheTiger Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 That'll definitely penetrate better than the Vmax. Link to comment
Boomstick303 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said: As counterintuitive as it sounds, plenty of government agencies with big research budgets have proven this to be false. I was amazed reading those reports as well. Watching video of various round comparisons where the pistol round always seem to penetrate more than the rifle rounds tested. As you said, "As counter intuitive as it sounds." @ltdmstr brought up a good point about shooting inside of any house or small room. During a home invasion you will have zero hearing protection, for this reason I will be looking into building a suppressed 300 Blackout SBR for a home defense gun. Link to comment
zzt Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said: As counterintuitive as it sounds, plenty of government agencies with big research budgets have proven this to be false. Well I Googled that research and many tend to agree with you, AS LONG as you were using select Soft Point or JHP ammo. I also read research on 9mm rounds where two Federal loads penetrated 12" of ballistic gel and were stopped by the first wall. Unfortunately, in that test all rounds were fired the the gel before hitting any walls. I'll have to reconsider my opinion. For me, I'll stick with pistols and 9mm and 45 HST ammo. Link to comment
RangerTrace Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: I was amazed reading those reports as well. Watching video of various round comparisons where the pistol round always seem to penetrate more than the rifle rounds tested. As you said, "As counter intuitive as it sounds." @ltdmstr brought up a good point about shooting inside of any house or small room. During a home invasion you will have zero hearing protection, for this reason I will be looking into building a suppressed 300 Blackout SBR for a home defense gun. I totally get why you might consider how loud the gun may be inside the residence, but as a good friend and retired DELTA guy told me, sometimes you want the bad guys to know they are being shot at. Link to comment
Sarge Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, RangerTrace said: I totally get why you might consider how loud the gun may be inside the residence, but as a good friend and retired DELTA guy told me, sometimes you want the bad guys to know they are being shot at. Yeah, and if s#!t has really hit the fan you won't even notice the loud noise until the next day. ;). Won't be worried about shooting glasses either. LOL Link to comment
mrd Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 3 hours ago, Sarge said: Yeah, and if s#!t has really hit the fan you won't even notice the loud noise until the next day. ;). Won't be worried about shooting glasses either. LOL And when the s hits the f again next week, you won't notice until it's too late because of hearing loss and you didn't hear what was going on. Don't plan for just the one incident. No matter how you look at it, hearing loss is better avoided. I'd go with supressed if possible or at least subsonic. Link to comment
Matt1911 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 I've got the 9mm pistol for quick grab into action piece and a 10.5" AR in 5.56 with a Saker K near by in a bag with extra mags. Link to comment
Chillywig Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 I think both 9 or 300 could over penetrate. Either way weapon lights are great tools. And go somewhere in the dark to see the effects of having a light behind your muzzle - you don't see how much smoke comes out of a gun until putting a very bright light behind the muzzle. I can look like a muzzle loader shooting unsuppressed. Something else to think about what if you are standing in your hall way with a very bright weapon mounted light and there is someone pointing a very bright weapon mounted light at you? How easy is it to identify who is behind those weapons? Link to comment
Les Snyder Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 you might look at something like a Recover Tactical brace ... it checks the boxes for me.. dependable firearm platform, lite weight, capable of being fired with brace folded.. 2" at 50m Link to comment
Sarge Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, mrd said: And when the s hits the f again next week, you won't notice until it's too late because of hearing loss and you didn't hear what was going on. Don't plan for just the one incident. No matter how you look at it, hearing loss is better avoided. I'd go with supressed if possible or at least subsonic. Most people will never encounter a real world home invasion, let alone one that turns into a raging gun battle. And certainly not likely to have it happen again the following week. If you are going to sit in court and say you were in fear for your life, and you actually mean it, hearing loss will be the farthest thing from your mind. Edited August 12, 2020 by Sarge Link to comment
robertg5322 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 13 hours ago, Sarge said: Yeah, and if s#!t has really hit the fan you won't even notice the loud noise until the next day. ;). Won't be worried about shooting glasses either. LOL Here's a funny take on this. Link to comment
ltdmstr Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, Sarge said: Most people will never encounter a real world home invasion, let alone one that turns into a raging gun battle. And certainly not likely to have it happen again the following week. If you are going to sit in court and say you were in fear for your life, and you actually mean it, hearing loss will be the farthest thing from your mind. I agree that chances of dealing with an armed home invasion are close to zero. But strongly disagree that dealing with permanent hearing loss isn't a significant consideration. If you're going to go through the trouble of having a weapon in case you need it, you should consider all the consequences of actually having to use it. That includes physical, mental, legal, etc. Link to comment
Sarge Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, ltdmstr said: I agree that chances of dealing with an armed home invasion are close to zero. But strongly disagree that dealing with permanent hearing loss isn't a significant consideration. If you're going to go through the trouble of having a weapon in case you need it, you should consider all the consequences of actually having to use it. That includes physical, mental, legal, etc. I feel like this is going way off course. I'm saying my life is more important than my hearing. Even a 45 ACP will be pretty loud when fired three times to put somebody down in your house, and will certainly do some hearing damage. Not like a full blown 5.56 but still.... I agree hearing loss is a consideration but geez I'll empty a mag without ear pro if I really, really, really have to. When your door comes crashing down do you go for your gun or your ear muffs first? That's all I'm saying Link to comment
ltdmstr Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 I'm with you there. Better off deaf than dead. Just saying it's a good idea to plan ahead and try to minimize the damage if it comes to that. A 9mm in a small room isn't great, but it's a hell of a lot better than 556 or 300, suppressed or not. Link to comment
mrd Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sarge said: I feel like this is going way off course. I'm saying my life is more important than my hearing. Even a 45 ACP will be pretty loud when fired three times to put somebody down in your house, and will certainly do some hearing damage. Not like a full blown 5.56 but still.... I agree hearing loss is a consideration but geez I'll empty a mag without ear pro if I really, really, really have to. When your door comes crashing down do you go for your gun or your ear muffs first? That's all I'm saying I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere here. Of course life is more important than hearing. I didn't mean that you should always get ear pro on, no matter what. What I meant is that with a surpressed weapon and/or subsonic ammo you will probably not get your hearing damaged or at least minimize the damage, if you need to shoot without ear pro. So, getting a 556 for home defense seems like a bad decision to me. 300 Blackout and 9x19 are better choices. I don't get the argument that it won't matter, you won't notice anyway at the time because of adrenaline. If you get hearing loss or tinnitus you will live with this the rest of your life, and it will affect your situational awareness as well as quality of life the rest of your days. In my mind there is no reason to try to minimize the risk of hearing damage. Ear pro depends on having time to put it on. But it's just as fast to get a 300 Blackout as it is to get a 556. Edited August 12, 2020 by mrd Link to comment
drysideshooter Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 Don't overlook the importance of avoiding surprises when you can. I live on acreage, and we have enough camera's that nobody gets close to our home without us knowing it. We have various protocols set up with the alarm, so that even during the day, if someone comes on our property, we know it. In the middle of the night, we will be awakened in time to be able to prepare a bit. For those that can, having systems in place to give you a bit of advanced warning gives you much more time to deploy the right weapons and not be in a "just heard a noise" panic. Link to comment
Steve RA Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 That is excellent advice ! Link to comment
BlackBuzzard Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) On 8/15/2020 at 12:05 PM, drysideshooter said: Don't overlook the importance of avoiding surprises when you can. I live on acreage, and we have enough camera's that nobody gets close to our home without us knowing it. We have various protocols set up with the alarm, so that even during the day, if someone comes on our property, we know it. In the middle of the night, we will be awakened in time to be able to prepare a bit. For those that can, having systems in place to give you a bit of advanced warning gives you much more time to deploy the right weapons and not be in a "just heard a noise" panic. Maybe a dozen deer traverse my property every night, along with some coyotes. Game cams verify it. Motion alarms would just keep us awake all night long. Edited August 17, 2020 by BlackBuzzard Link to comment
drysideshooter Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 1 hour ago, BlackBuzzard said: Maybe a dozen deer traverse my property every night, along with some coyotes. Game cams verify it. Motion alarms would just keep us awake all night long. We live on acreage in the country. Deer, coyotes, bobcats, badgers, an occasional elk, are typical on a daily basis. We shoot quite a few coyotes on our property. With the right type of system and coverage they aren't a problem. Link to comment
Moondog Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 (edited) https://youtu.be/NZTBPpZk0Mc https://youtu.be/X0qgQoej5zE These videos made me reconsider my assumptions about over-penetration with my Sub2K 9mm in regards to concern for my kids in their rooms or neighbors (I live in a city townhouse). I was surprised to learn that 9mm Defensive ammo over-penetrated as much or more than a 223/556. But I agree, 556 is much more unpleasant and disorienting to fire indoors than a 9mm. I've now added a spare pare of electronic ear-pro to my HDef ready gear (pistol belt, holster, spare mags, etc.). The amplification of "normal volume" sound is a plus. Edited September 4, 2020 by Moondog Link to comment
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