Barrel hit

[dmshozer1]

Level 1 match,

Start was gun touching the top of the barrel

Shooter hit the barrel while engaging target array with one shot. Moved to finish the stage.

The round did not leave the berm.

Any call besides the miss on one target?

[DKorn]

9 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Level 1 match,

Start was gun touching the top of the barrel

Shooter hit the barrel while engaging target array with one shot. Moved to finish the stage.

The round did not leave the berm.

Any call besides the miss on one target?

Can you clarify for me a bit - was this a PCC or handgun? Was the start position “muzzle touching barrel” or “gun sitting on barrel”?

 

Would the round have hit the ground if the barrel wasn’t there, and if so, how far from the shooter? How far away was the target?
 

I have a few answers depending on the answers to those questions. 

[stick]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

Can you clarify for me a bit - was this a PCC or handgun? Was the start position “muzzle touching barrel” or “gun sitting on barrel”?

 

Would the round have hit the ground if the barrel wasn’t there, and if so, how far from the shooter? How far away was the target?
 

I have a few answers depending on the answers to those questions. 

I was thinking about asking the same questions.  Need more details before a ruling can be made.

[DKorn]

33 minutes ago, stick said:

I was thinking about asking the same questions.  Need more details before a ruling can be made.

Agreed. 
 

The 2 possibly applicable rules that immediately come to mind are 10.4.2.2 and 10.4.7. 
 

10.4.7 would apply if the firearm was staged and the competitor was clearly not yet engaging targets when the round fired. 
 

10.4.2.2 would apply if the round would have hit within 10 feet had it not struck the barrel as long as the target was farther than 10 feet. 

[dmshozer1]

18 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Agreed. 
 

The 2 possibly applicable rules that immediately come to mind are 10.4.2.2 and 10.4.7. 
 

10.4.7 would apply if the firearm was staged and the competitor was clearly not yet engaging targets when the round fired. 
 

10.4.2.2 would apply if the round would have hit within 10 feet had it not struck the barrel as long as the target was farther than 10 feet. 

Yup,

Looked it up myself. PCC, barrel touching top of barrel.

Shooter stepped to the side but did not clear the end of the barrel on the first shot.

Round hit the back berm.

I think 10.4.2.2 covers it.

Thanks

[DKorn]

4 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Yup,

Looked it up myself. PCC, barrel touching top of barrel.

Shooter stepped to the side but did not clear the end of the barrel on the first shot.

Round hit the back berm.

I think 10.4.2.2 covers it.

Thanks

10.4.2.2 would only apply if the round would have hit the ground within 10 feet of the shooter if it hadn’t hit the barrel. Since it hit the back berm, it sounds to me like it’s just a miss - no different than if you’re leaning around a wall and forget about height over bore and put a round into the edge of the wall. 

[HCH]

If the shooter was engaging a target it’s just a miss. 

 

If they lit one off while picking the gun up, round hit less than 10 feet and all that jazz, DQ. 

 

 

[stick]

15 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

Yup,

Looked it up myself. PCC, barrel touching top of barrel.

Shooter stepped to the side but did not clear the end of the barrel on the first shot.

Round hit the back berm.

I think 10.4.2.2 covers it.

Thanks

I'm still not understanding what he did.  Did he pick up the gun, step, shoot and the round went through the barrel while he was engaging the target?  or did he pick up the gun, step and shoot through the barrel while retrieving the gun?

[Schutzenmeister]

Ten feet is not necessary.  Is it possible this actually qualifies as a DQ under 10.4.7?

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Ten feet is not necessary.  Is it possible this actually qualifies as a DQ under 10.4.7?

 

19 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

Level 1 match,

Start was gun touching the top of the barrel

Shooter hit the barrel while engaging target array with one shot. Moved to finish the stage.

The round did not leave the berm.

Any call besides the miss on one target?

 

Not according to the OP.

 

[DKorn]

6 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Ten feet is not necessary.  Is it possible this actually qualifies as a DQ under 10.4.7?

Based on the clarification that the shooter started holding the gun and was engaging targets, no.

 

10.4.7 requires that they are retrieving a staged gun and not engaging targets. If you’re already holding the gun in the PCC start position, then it can’t apply. Likewise it can’t apply if you’re picking the gun up and engaging targets when you shoot the prop. 

[IVC]

Also, if the hit on the barrel was a partial hit, the impact down range counts for score or penalty. It's not an automatic miss just because he hit the barrel. 

[stick]

4 minutes ago, IVC said:

Also, if the hit on the barrel was a partial hit, the impact down range counts for score or penalty. It's not an automatic miss just because he hit the barrel. 

Depending if the barrel was hard cover or soft cover.

[IVC]

Since the bullet hit the back berm, 10.4.1 is not applicable - a deflection in the unsafe direction is not a DQ based on this rule, but the deflection in this case ended up in safe direction, so N/A. 

 

The above mentioned 10.4.2.2 is also (likely) not applicable - even if the bullet would have struck within 10 feet of the competitor were it not for the deflection, if the shooter was engaging a close target (which it appears he was, based on the OP), 10.4.2 explicitly exempts such targets from DQ. 

 

Based on how I understand the OP, it was just a matter of determining the score and no additional penalties. No different than hitting any other hard cover. 

[IVC]

1 minute ago, stick said:

Depending if the barrel was hard cover or soft cover.

Why? Soft cover allows to be shot through, but hard cover still allows partial hits to count. If it was a full hit of the barrel then yes, soft cover makes a difference. Not if it's a partial hit - it counts down range. Rule 2.2.3.4 talks about it, probably a few others... 

[IVC]

Also barrels and barriers are considered hard cover unless stated otherwise, so any standalone barrel that is not addressed in the WSB is a hard cover. I doubt OP would omit that the barrel was listed in the WSB as being "special" (i.e., soft cover). 

[stick]

2 minutes ago, IVC said:

Why? Soft cover allows to be shot through, but hard cover still allows partial hits to count. If it was a full hit of the barrel then yes, soft cover makes a difference. Not if it's a partial hit - it counts down range. Rule 2.2.3.4 talks about it, probably a few others... 

2.2.3.4 All such barriers are considered to represent a solid plane and are considered hard cover unless designated as soft cover (see 9.1.6). Shots cannot be fired though the barrier except at designated shooting ports or other designated openings. Any hits that result from full diameter shots fired through a barrier except through a designated port or opening will not count for score and if a steel target is knocked down it will be considered REF and a reshoot will be ordered. See 9.1.6.2

 

This is what I was referring to

[IVC]

Notice the “full diameter shots” wording...

[dmshozer1]

4 hours ago, stick said:

I'm still not understanding what he did.  Did he pick up the gun, step, shoot and the round went through the barrel while he was engaging the target?  or did he pick up the gun, step and shoot through the barrel while retrieving the gun?

Both hands on gun, gun muzzle touching top of barrel,

At the beep he moved to his left, shot one round, realized he hit the barrel, moved more to his left, finished the array and then moved to finish the stage.

First shot went through the barrel and hit the back berm. For some reason he did not make up the shot and had a miss on his first target. We were not sure what

to do so we gave him the miss and moved on. All friends, no winnabago to win but wanted to know for more serious type matches.

[DKorn]

1 minute ago, dmshozer1 said:

Both hands on gun, gun muzzle touching top of barrel,

At the beep he moved to his left, shot one round, realized he hit the barrel, moved more to his left, finished the array and then moved to finish the stage.

First shot went through the barrel and hit the back berm. For some reason he did not make up the shot and had a miss on his first target. We were not sure what

to do so we gave him the miss and moved on. All friends, no winnabago to win but wanted to know for more serious type matches.

Sounds like you made the right call. 

[stick]

27 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Both hands on gun, gun muzzle touching top of barrel,

At the beep he moved to his left, shot one round, realized he hit the barrel, moved more to his left, finished the array and then moved to finish the stage.

First shot went through the barrel and hit the back berm. For some reason he did not make up the shot and had a miss on his first target. We were not sure what

to do so we gave him the miss and moved on. All friends, no winnabago to win but wanted to know for more serious type matches.

Thank you!  I'm a little on the slow side right now.  I understand.  Looking back at your earlier post, I believe you made the right decision. 10.4.2.2