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Reshooting classifier at match for submission but not for match position?


-JCN-
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A couple people at a local match said there was a recent bulletin or comment about being allowed to reshoot a classifier for submission but not for match standings. 
 

Does anyone have that information or posting? I know that it has been a option in the past at the discretion of the club, but it sounded like there was some recent wording where it was expressly endorsed or supported by rules (which I’m having a hard time believing). 
 

Thanks! And yes, I do know that people are just gaming themselves and paper-GM and all. But that aside....

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Reshoots on classifiers is limited to one, and you are correct that it does not count for match standing.  If you go to uspsa.org in the NROI tab and click on "Practiscore Training" you'll see that the most recent video shows how to do record the reshoot correctly -

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Lee is correct.

The bulletin is recent- but was covered in a BOD meeting note 2 -3 years ago.. I can't remember which meeting, but it was expressly for the paper GM or gaming of this.

and yes there are/were people that would shoot a classifier until they got what they wanted.

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From the USPSA Member's Page, Classification System:

 

Quote

Most of the scores will come from classifier courses set up by USPSA-affiliated clubs. The clubs are responsible for setting up these stages according to exact specifications and for administering them uniformly. They are part of the club’s monthly match, are included in the calculation of the match results, and are submitted for national classification of the member. According to USPSA board policy, members participating in matches which contain a classifier stage may be allowed to repeat that stage at the convenience of match officials, but this is for classification purposes only. The first score of the classification stage must be used to calculate match standings. The first score of the classification stage must be used to calculate match standings.  Classifier reshoots must be entered on a second entry (re-entry) of that competitor in the match (for more details on how to do this, Practiscore Training Video, Part 9).  Competitors are only allowed to reshoot the stage once, per division, per match (see Feb. 28, 2017 USPSA BOD minutes). Both scores will be submitted to USPSA and each will be assessed an activity fee.

  

From the Feb 28, 2017 BoD minutes:

 

Quote

4. Mike Foley, President- Limiting multiple re-entry classifiers in a single division in a single match to a maximum of one, moved forward from January BOD Meeting. Motion by Area 8, second by Area 5, to limit classifier re-entries in a single division in a single match to a maximum of one re-entry, for classification purposes. Motion passed 11:38PM.

 

Not exactly new ... But that's where it came from.

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That training "Practiscore Training Video" does not take into account that second classifier re-runs go into the match scores in PractiScore and in some cases can change the overall match standing, which does NOT comply with requirement of classifiers re-runs to not count for the match score. I don't mean that shooter's position will change in the match after classifier re-run, but it can affect other competitor scores.

 

Not sure if USPSA NROI doesn't understand the issue, doesn't want to recognize it or don't care about that.

Edited by euxx
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1 hour ago, euxx said:

That training "Practiscore Training Video" does not take into account that second classifier re-runs go into the match scores in PractiScore and in some cases can change the overall match standing, which does NOT comply with requirement of classifiers re-runs to not count for the match score. I don't mean that shooter's position will change in the match after classifier re-run, but it can affect other competitor scores.

 

Not sure if USPSA NROI doesn't understand the issue, doesn't want to recognize it or don't care about that.


It seems to me if I’m understanding the process if I was entered in the match as “JCN limited” and wanted to shoot the classifier again, the RO would create a second JCN limited entry and enter the score there. Then the club would submit both classifier entries to USPSA and the higher would count towards classification. 
 

It shouldn’t affect match outcome because the second entry would only have one stage scored and presumably be at the end of the ranking. 

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1 minute ago, -JCN- said:

It seems to me if I’m understanding the process if I was entered in the match as “JCN limited” and wanted to shoot the classifier again, the RO would create a second JCN limited entry and enter the score there. Then the club would submit both classifier entries to USPSA and the higher would count towards classification. 
 

It shouldn’t affect match outcome because the second entry would only have one stage scored and presumably be at the end of the ranking. 

 

I'm glad you asked...

 

If your second "no-score" run (doesn't matter in the same division or in a different one) happen to be the top score for that single stage - then it WILL push everyone else scores on that stage down and that COULD affect the overall match standing. So, this DOES affect the match outcome.

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28 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

I'm glad you asked...

 

If your second "no-score" run (doesn't matter in the same division or in a different one) happen to be the top score for that single stage - then it WILL push everyone else scores on that stage down and that COULD affect the overall match standing. So, this DOES affect the match outcome.

 

Assume further that it is a special classifier match with ALL classifier stages ... Shooter reenters on a second gun for all stages.  In theory he could win the match on his second gun.

 

Methinks a tweak to PS may be in order!

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7 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Assume further that it is a special classifier match with ALL classifier stages ... Shooter reenters on a second gun for all stages.  In theory he could win the match on his second gun.

 

Methinks a tweak to PS may be in order!

 

Even not a classifier match. There are clubs around here that run multiple days and shooters are allowed to shoot both days, even in the same division. So they can in theory go finish 1st - 3rd if the shoot all three days.

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1 hour ago, euxx said:

Both of those also assume that someone in a need or it is necessary for something.

See my note in regards to NROI position. I didn't read that they need it.

 

He also said "me thinks" so that sounds like his opinion not NROI's. 

 

If i'm understanding this right and PS is letting a classifier re-shoot potentially effect the stage points for the match then I would also think a adjustment is needed. I think it's needed and/or necessary because I want to see accurate scores.

 

Edited by Racinready300ex
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The MD can simply create a "reshoot" match and score separately.  Or maintain the reshoots in the main match and then delete them after the USPSA upload. Or they could simply not allow reshoots! In either case, no software changes are necessary. 😉

 

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I guess the convoluted way around it is to create a separate match for reshooters, but that’s probably fairly logistically challenging. 
 

But I guess it could be done with a separate Nook or Kindle that lives at that stage. Anyone wanting a reshoot enters it on that tablet and it is physically distinct from the main match. 

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3 hours ago, euxx said:

That training "Practiscore Training Video" does not take into account that second classifier re-runs go into the match scores in PractiScore and in some cases can change the overall match standing, which does NOT comply with requirement of classifiers re-runs to not count for the match score. I don't mean that shooter's position will change in the match after classifier re-run, but it can affect other competitor scores.

 

Not sure if USPSA NROI doesn't understand the issue, doesn't want to recognize it or don't care about that.

 

That video was confusing to me also because they say it doesn't count for score, but it clearly does, and they don't seem to address that. 

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23 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If i'm understanding this right and PS is letting a classifier re-shoot...

 

There is a difference in PS letting and USPSA using it that way, as evident from the tutorial video. I don't think PS has been consulted when video was created.

 

The first time I wrote a memo about was several years ago. I did it again in January of the last year. Still no one needed it...

 

16 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

The MD can simply create a "reshoot" match and score separately.  Or maintain the reshoots in the main match and then delete them after the USPSA upload. Or they could simply not allow reshoots! In either case, no software changes are necessary. 😉

 

Chuck, the "USPSA upload" does upload of the match scores, classifiers and activity as one file. I don't really see how you can exclude re-run classifiers score from that (without changes in software, both in the app and PS web site). Besides, you don't want to have different match or classifier results between PS and USPSA.

 

Doing reshoots in a separate match will work, but it's ugly for MD and ROs. Though MD could split reshoots in a separate match before posting to PractiScore, but that's a manual task, which is likely over the top of the head for most MDs. :)

Edited by euxx
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4 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

There is a difference in PS letting and USPSA using it that way, as evident from the tutorial video. I don't think PS has been consulted when video was created.

 

The first time I wrote a memo about was several years ago. I did it again in January of the last year. Still no one needed it...

 

 

Chuck, the "USPSA upload" does upload of the match scores, classifiers and activity as one file. I don't really see how you can exclude re-run classifiers score from that. Besides, you don't want to have different match or classifier results between PS and USPSA.

 

Doing reshoots in a separate match will work, but it's ugly for MD and ROs. Though MD could split reshoots in a separate match before posting to PractiScore, but that's a manual task, which is likely over the top of the head for most MDs. :)

You make a very convincing case for not allowing reshoots! :devil:

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