Calming the dot

[Dranoel]

On 7/21/2020 at 7:29 PM, Cuz said:

That’s easier said than done, especially if we want to shoot both.

 

Not really. Once you get used to the dot, you develop a sort of different "mode" of shooting. Much like when I was doing a lot of revolver shooting and taking my revolvers and pistols to the range. Pick up a revolver and you go into revolver mode. Pick up a 1911 and you go into pistol mode. Now it Dot mode and Iron mode. 

I think the biggest problem people run into is worrying about it. Just forget all the other BS. When the dot is where you want it, squeeze the trigger.

Was at the range earlier today, shooting with iron sights on one 1911, dot on another and a CZ75 TS with iron. All in all the groups were pretty much the same. Except the CZ which had grips loosening and was hard to keep a consistent grip with.

 

[mvmojo]

I don't notice the dot dancing anymore.  It doesn't dance any less, I think I've learned to just ignore the small movement.  But I did some night shooting a few months back using a light and laser.  Talk about something that will show you just how shaky the gun really is!  A laser at 20 yds really jumps around.  

[wrx04]

Im interested to try a dot.  It seems most people have trouble irons-->dot, but less an issue the other way around.  Conceptually it seems like it should be easy to adjust to a dot, but I haven't tried one yet....

 

How long is the typical learning curve?  I assume the index is the most important.....followed by clear target focus.

[BoyGlock]

3 hours ago, wrx04 said:

How long is the typical learning curve?  I assume the index is the most important.....followed by clear target focus.

If your grip and index on irons is good, and If you give it daily focused time and effort of dry fire, guess its doable in just a few days. 1-3 days tops. Put a patching tape or other non transparent material in front of the lens to aid in learning target focus. Then practice it frequently so you wont lose it again. 

[IVC]

On 7/25/2020 at 5:35 PM, Dranoel said:

Not really. Once you get used to the dot, you develop a sort of different "mode" of shooting. Much like when I was doing a lot of revolver shooting and taking my revolvers and pistols to the range. Pick up a revolver and you go into revolver mode. Pick up a 1911 and you go into pistol mode. Now it Dot mode and Iron mode. 

^^^ Worth emphasizing.

 

And it's not just about irons vs. dot, but also about different triggers, different gear, different weight distribution of a gun and many other nuances of various divisions. In the end, once you have practiced enough to become proficient with different setups, it seamlessly carries over across divisions. I've never seen people who can shoot one gun but cannot shoot another, or who are fast with just one type of gun, or who are accurate only with some guns... Well, maybe the first time they pick it up, but the skill quickly transfers to the new setup and then it remains. 

[lgh]

3 hours ago, IVC said:

Now it Dot mode and Iron mode.

Good summary. Just practice a lot so gun goes where your attention is focused. A early problem I had was some dots are too high. Once I got a low riding dot either the dot or the irons go to where my attention is focused. i.e. along line of sight. Point your nose at the  target and the line from nose to target is a good enough approximation of your sight line. Drive the gun down that line. Then Dot is target focus and Irons are front sight. You may find you don't even need much of an iron focus when you're going fast and you know (through practice) that the sights are on. Flash picture of irons = flash picture of dot

[Stdz]

This is a good convo 

[Dranoel]

10 hours ago, IVC said:

^^^ Worth emphasizing.

 

And it's not just about irons vs. dot, but also about different triggers, different gear, different weight distribution of a gun and many other nuances of various divisions. In the end, once you have practiced enough to become proficient with different setups, it seamlessly carries over across divisions. I've never seen people who can shoot one gun but cannot shoot another, or who are fast with just one type of gun, or who are accurate only with some guns... Well, maybe the first time they pick it up, but the skill quickly transfers to the new setup and then it remains. 

 

Exactly. The basic skills are there, now apply them to whatever you're shooting. 

[cardguy]

This...

 

[Sethdaniel05]

Are you trying to work on steadying the gun in general or keeping it steady during your trigger press?

I’ve found success lately by relaxing my firing hand. This helps both scenarios.


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[will77]

Lots of good info here thanks! Switching from irons to a dot wasn’t as easy as I thought.

[Boomstick303]

19 minutes ago, will77 said:

Lots of good info here thanks! Switching from irons to a dot wasn’t as easy as I thought.

 

My favorite comment is, "Dots are for people who cannot shoot using Irons".  Completely different aiming devices that both require training to shoot effectively.

[will77]

Yep I agree 100% 

[will77]

Got 200 practice rounds in today starting to get the hang of it. Caught myself focusing on the dot and it was really slowing me down ,hopefully couple more practice sessions before a steel match Saturday or it could be interesting ha. 

[Nic_USPSA_C]

Struggled with this as well now it just comes naturally.

 

Dry fire practice, practice, practice.

 

 

[will77]

Well I struggled some at the match today I was picking the dot up good on my draw but would loose it when swinging to the next target guess  I need to focus on is my target transitions more. 

[JTran253]

The dot will always dance but as long as it's in the A zone like others have said, just be confident in your trigger pull and send it. The learning curve for me from irons to red dot took a few months so just keep at it. I think just getting over the learning curve of the dot will make you better even when going back to irons since your muscle memory to press out is more refined since you have a lower margin for error with a dot.

[will77]

Well more dry fire and couple more practice sessions down getting better I'm still losing it some on my transitions but its getting better another steel challenge match this Saturday so we'll see. Hopefully the rain blows out of here and I can get in one more practice session Friday.      

[Dranoel]

On 9/2/2020 at 3:18 PM, Boomstick303 said:

 

My favorite comment is, "Dots are for people who cannot shoot using Irons".  Completely different aiming devices that both require training to shoot effectively.

 

I refused to depart from my iron sights for a long time and even swore that I would never go optic because I shoot on index primarily. Now that I'm getting old and my eyes are failing me, I have had to admit that optics DO make it better. Granted, I am still all about index, but when I go to confirm the sights on target, optics are faster.

[Bigdeal929]

On 7/15/2020 at 8:32 PM, DKorn said:

Steve Anderson likes to say on his podcast that the dot is usually “a paintbrush and not a scalpel”. As long as all the movement is inside where you’re trying to hit, send it!

This! ^^^^

[M1A4ME]

When I was doing more rifle shooting I remember one of the instructors talking about "the rifleman's dance."

 

That referred to the sights/cross hairs of the scope moving on the target.  It's going to move.  You can't stop it from moving.  What you can do is work on your technique/practice to make that "dance" tighter and tighter.

 

The tighter the "dance" the easier it will be for you to put the bullet where you want it.

 

Muscles, practice (dry firing), and improving your technique will get you there.  The dot will always move, you just want to make the movement smaller/less.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 9/17/2020 at 1:54 PM, will77 said:

Well more dry fire and couple more practice sessions down getting better I'm still losing it some on my transitions but its getting better another steel challenge match this Saturday so we'll see. Hopefully the rain blows out of here and I can get in one more practice session Friday.      

 

Imagine that the pistol sits at the apex of an imaginary triangle formed by the pistol and both your shoulders.  When you look from above, it's a right triangle and the pistol is directly in front of your face and laterally equidistant from both shoulders.  When you look from your side at the plane made by that triangle, it's inclined upwards from your shoulders to the pistol which sits at the same level as your eyes.

 

When we shot with irons, it was really easy to get in the habit of slightly dropping the pistol from the line of sight or to let the triangle become skewed to one side, or both, as we transition and move because finding the sights was really easy.  We could see them on top of the gun no matter what.

 

With a reflex sight you can no longer afford to let that triangle go out of square or to let the gun drop below your line of sight during transitions or you will lose sight of the dot.  Occasionally you'lll be forced to drop the gun (like to open a port or to really haul ass from A to B ) so you should practice both things: 1) moving and transitioning keeping the gun right in front of your face and indexed straight ahead and 2) breaking that alignment and then regaining it quickly.  A big challenge are oddball leans and squats.  Pay attention to those.

[Dr_Z]

I think you are not doing anything "wrong" or different. The dot only just magnified your imperfections. Due to the nature of iron sights, you won't be able to capture those slight "dancing" of the gun and therefore the sight picture is perceived to be more stable. In fact, your gun moves constantly and most likely in the same fashion, provided you don't change the way you grip the gun. 

 

The only way to reduce the "dancing" of dot (out side of the actual recoil stroke) is improving you grip.   

[CGoodwin]

Going through this process for the third (attempted) time. More dry fire and less running to the range expecting it to just work is the simple answer for me.

I also got caught up in the dot size/dot stability conversation and am working to learn to embrace the normal movement of the dot with respiration and muscle activation. Just a normal part of the process!

[terrydoc]

I've found shooting steel challenge has helped me and reading these types of threads ie: listen to those that know and have gone through the change over.