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two string stage - picking mag up off the ground


waktasz
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Yesterday we shot the classifier "The Condor"

I was RO-ing and because of the retreating movement on the second string, and where most people ended up dropping their first mag, I was picking up the dropped mag to avoid people tripping or twisting an ankle on it. When we shot this classifier at nats in 2018 we did the same thing. 

 

One particular shooter's mag didn't end up falling anywhere near where he would have tripped on it for his second run, so I left it there. Amusingly, after a malfunction on the second string, he noticed the mag from his first string on the ground, retrieved it and finished the stage.

 

Two questions-

1- is that allowed? I'm leaning toward no, because mags must come from your belt or pockets. (5.2.4) although 5.5.2 says you can retrieve mags you drop after the start signal. (which start signal ? :)

 

2- Assuming yes, it's allowed, if I had picked up his mag after string one, and he was looking for it during string two, would that be interference? 

 

 

 

Edited by waktasz
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5.2.4 says "During a course of fire", which is through all strings of a stage as the definition of COF says it's interchangeable with "Stage". So during the stage, the magazine he has picked from a previous string has technically come from the allowed location during the COF. 

 

While it may not be the intent, its what the words say. Thus if the competitor needed that dropped mag from the previous string, you have interfered and its a reshoot.

 

 

Edited by broadside72
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25 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

5.2.4 says "During a course of fire", which is through all strings of a stage as the definition of COF says it's interchangeable with "Stage". So during the stage, the magazine he has picked from a previous string has technically come from the allowed location during the COF. 

 

While it may not be the intent, its what the words say. Thus if the competitor needed that dropped mag from the previous string, you have interfered and its a reshoot.

 

 

 

Not a bad point

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55 minutes ago, waktasz said:

he noticed the mag from his first string on the ground, retrieved it and finished the stage.

 

Broadside - why do you say the RO interfered?  Either its a penalty or not.  No reshoot.

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8 minutes ago, jwhittin said:

 

Broadside - why do you say the RO interfered?  Either its a penalty or not.  No reshoot.

 

I was commenting about the RO picking up the mag between strings and the shooter needing it on the second string but it was not available. The RO interfered, so its a reshoot

Edited by broadside72
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42 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

5.2.4 says "During a course of fire", which is through all strings of a stage as the definition of COF says it's interchangeable with "Stage". So during the stage, the magazine he has picked from a previous string has technically come from the allowed location during the COF. 

 

The last two string stage I shot required a paste and reset in between strings, so we did the 8.3.8 "range is clear" command twice ("This designation signifies the end of the course of fire") .

 

I suppose the answer could be 'it depends'.  

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The OP's "which start signal?" question is crucial to answering this question correctly.

 

5.2.4 says "During the course of fire, after the start signal..."

 

The question is, on a multi-string COF, what does "the start signal" mean in the context of rule 5.2.4?

 

Does it mean

A) "the first start signal of the COF" or does it mean

B) "the start signal of the current string the competitor is shooting"?

 

If it's A, then yes the competitor should be allowed to pick up the magazine they dropped during string 1 during string 2, and the RO interefered with them by picking up the magazine, so it's a re-shoot.

However, if it's B, then the moment the start signal for string 2 goes off, the competitor isn't allowed to pick up the magazine if they dropped it during string 1. They would have to pick it up and return it to their belt before starting string 2.

 

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I avoid interacting with shooters during the COF except for issuing range commands. I had enough mags on my belt to not care about the one I dropped, so if the RO tapped me on the shoulder to hand me a mag during my mental prep for the second string my response would likely have been utter annoyance. 

Edited by waktasz
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Looking some more, I think 5.5.2 is actually the applicable rule here:

 

5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

 

No mention of the course of fire, just the start signal. This reads to me like "the start signal for the current string", which would mean any magazines on the ground when the start signal for string 2 goes off become ineligible for the competitor to retrieve.

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Well to play devils advocate 
If we go with the no penalty, he can use the dropped mag in string 2.
Whats to stop me  for doing this:
I shoot  the first string, time stops after last shot. But at the command of ULSC,, I commence to walking around the cof and taking my production mags and strategically discarding them around the course of fire  for use during the second string ?

 

Although I thing the root of this and many other problems is the whole string thing.  Rule book and/ or MD's just need to do away with the string thing. Seems to always cause weird scoring issues like this.
 

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12 minutes ago, stick said:

The best way to answer the question is to Email Troy and see what he says.  I would be interested in the interpretation of the rule. 

 

Agreed. But this way is a good thought & rulebook refresher exercise.

 

I am convincing myself that I need to clear mags off the stage for all competitors if I'm the r.o. . If I leave one person a slip hazard, or potential reload mag, I think I have not done my job to try and insure competitive equity.

 

I should probably take that CRO course one day. 

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14 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Well to play devils advocate 
If we go with the no penalty, he can use the dropped mag in string 2.
Whats to stop me  for doing this:
I shoot  the first string, time stops after last shot. But at the command of ULSC,, I commence to walking around the cof and taking my production mags and strategically discarding them around the course of fire  for use during the second string ?

 

Although I thing the root of this and many other problems is the whole string thing.  Rule book and/ or MD's just need to do away with the string thing. Seems to always cause weird scoring issues like this.
 

 

and if you only get the "prepare for your next string" command and you are still under make ready?

 

5 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Agreed. But this way is a good thought & rulebook refresher exercise.

 

I am convincing myself that I need to clear mags off the stage for all competitors if I'm the r.o. . If I leave one person a slip hazard, or potential reload mag, I think I have not done my job to try and insure competitive equity.

 

I should probably take that CRO course one day. 

 

I just looked at the CRO course book I have and it makes no mention about this

I do agree that this is another case of vagueness in the rules and clarification from DNROI would be helpful

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25 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Well to play devils advocate 
If we go with the no penalty, he can use the dropped mag in string 2.
Whats to stop me  for doing this:
I shoot  the first string, time stops after last shot. But at the command of ULSC,, I commence to walking around the cof and taking my production mags and strategically discarding them around the course of fire  for use during the second string ?

 

Although I thing the root of this and many other problems is the whole string thing.  Rule book and/ or MD's just need to do away with the string thing. Seems to always cause weird scoring issues like this.
 

to further your devils advocate idea. 

 

if the shooter would rather pick mags up from the ground or wherever than off their belt on the second string of a standard more power to them. 

 

to me that's like not specifying hand position in the wsb and the shooter hovers over their grip, it is very very rare that said shooter improves their draw by doing something they dont all the time.

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11 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I am convincing myself that I need to clear mags off the stage for all competitors if I'm the r.o. . If I leave one person a slip hazard, or potential reload mag, I think I have not done my job to try and insure competitive equity. NOT SO FAST. IN A NORMAL STAGE WITHOUT THE CONFUSION OF STRINGS ETC THE SHOOTER HAS EVERY RIGHT TO RETRIEVE DROPPED MAGS. BY PICKING THEM UP HE CAN RIGHTLY CLAIM INTERFERENCE. BY MOVING MAGS FOR 5 SHOOTERS THEN NOT HAVING TIME TO REMOVE MAGS FOR THE NEXT SHOOTER AND HE SLIPS ON IT YOU DID MORE TO DAMAGE COMPETITIVE EQUITY THAN IF YOU HAD JUST LEFT THEM ALONE. I NEVER TOUCH MAGS THAT HAVE FALLEN TO THE GROUND. BESIDES IF A TINY LITTLE MAG IS A TRIP OR SLIP HAZARD SHOOTERS HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS TO WORRY ABOUT.

 

I should probably take that CRO course one day. ALWAYS A GREAT IDEA BUT TO BE HONEST YOU WILL LEARN MUCH MORE BY PRINTING OFF THE RULES AND PUTTING THEM IN THE BATHROOM OR GETTING IN THE HABIT OF READING THEM ON YOUR PHONE AT SOME POINT AT LEAST A FEW TIMES A WEEK.

 

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For those of you who care and have an open mind......

My philosophy is that the RO should never touch the shooter, touch the gun or touch the shooter's "stuff" except it is in the interest of a significant safety issue.

The COF begins with "Make Ready" and does not end until "Range is Clear".

In a classifier or standards stage, the individual strings happen during ONE course of fire.  However, during the interim between strings (when the timer is not running), there is no problem (and can be beneficial) for the RO to confirm that the stage is safe.  If you believe that a previously dropped mag is a safety issue, go ahead and pick it up.  But if you do, you have to do it for every shooter.  If you leave for one, you leave for all.

If a mag was left on the ground during the COF, the shooter has every right to pick it up.  Period!  It's not his fault that it was there when you allowed it to be on the COF.

So the key here is to keep your hands to yourself and be consistent.

Looking for "excuses" to apply penalties when your own actions are involved is never a good idea.

.02

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45 minutes ago, George Jones said:

My philosophy is that the RO should never touch the shooter, touch the gun or touch the shooter's "stuff" except it is in the interest of a significant safety issue.

My sentiments exactly.

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Early on I was running a stage at a Level III, and had ROs following me and the shooters, and they were picking up mags as a courtesy. At ULSC they would hand them to the shooter. I'd done it myself often enough and just thought of it as being helpful. 

 

I was cool with that until. . .this one shooter. Something told me it was going to go sideways. I don't know why. When an RO behind us started to pick up the first mag I waved them off. Again, I don't know why.

 

Sure enough, the shooter got to the end and found themself short of ammo. They started backtracking, looking for abandoned magazines. I managed to stay uprange and was thinking, "Oh s#!t...Never again".

 

I won't pick up mags or allow anyone helping to do it since that day. I narrowly avoided a reshoot based on RO interference and haven't forgotten the lesson (I hate giving reshoots due to my screwups).

 

++++++++

As for the original question, it seems to be an element of a single stage, regardless of the number of strings involved. Leave 'em and let the shooter sort it out.

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9 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

As for the original question, it seems to be an element of a single stage, regardless of the number of strings involved. Leave 'em and let the shooter sort it out.

 

I think on a normal stage there is not any question about picking up mags or otherwise interfering with shooters.

 

Confusion still reigns (to me) on 2.3.7 (Routine maintenance to a stage . . .  - ensure competitive equity for all competitors . . . .). Removing items from the ground that provide a potential advantage/disadvantage to a particular shooter seems mandatory before 'make ready' on a normal stage or the first string on a multiple string stage. For the original question, I do not see anything solid in the rules that says 'Routine maintenance to a stage' should or should not be done between strings. I have no argument with the philosophy of doing it, or not doing it, but would like to be comfortable that I am following a consistent rule rather than one of the popular philosophies. 

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I think in the future I will just have the shooter or someone on the squad grab it if the shooter wants it moved. Then it's not on the RO and there is no potential for issues. At nats when this stage was run for the first time we were grabbing them off the ground for each other. 

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