Lazy Shooters

[davidb72]

I know this has probably been beat to death, but what do you do with lazy shooters?

Shot a match this past Sunday - a big local match (10 big stages) and it was hot.

There were two of us running the timer for 90% of the day.

At one point I had just given up the timer after running the first 6 shooters and someone immediately tried to hand me the nook. I told them they were going to have to find someone else.

This gentleman next to me says that he's been doing this for 20 years and that he wasn't going to do it. Not only wouldn't he run the nook, he wouldn't run the timer and he barely helped paste. He spent one entire stage bullshitting with the match director while everyone else busted their asses. I will say that the rest of the squad was great - everyone was pitching in and helping to reset, paste, and score.

Maybe I'm getting burnt out, but a day like that makes me think I'd be better off going for a motorcycle ride or cutting the grass on match days.

Is there a certain point where you have enough experience that you don't have to help run the squad or help reset? I'm only about 10 years into this so I guess I have 10 more to go until I get that pass.

[Zincwarrior]

So...was everyone but the one guy helping?  I am an old geezer and can't RO a USPSA match because I can't keep up with the young guys (IDPA and steel I do).

[Boomstick303]

Is this a question or a rant?

[davidb72]

5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Is this a question or a rant?

Yes

LOL

[Boomstick303]

If everyone else was great in helping and taping they wouldn't help with the timer or the tablet/nook?  Did any of them have experience in running either or were a qualified RO?

 

The only time I see when people don't want to pick up either one of those items is if they are new, or feel they are not qualified (i.e. new people).  Probably wouldn't let them RO, but getting new people involved with the tablet/nook, is up to the qualified ROs and seasoned shooters.  Especially if there is only one or two ROs on the squad.  This will also help in future matches to have more people comfortable scoring.  

 

Something I look for at the start of every match in the squad I am in is some one needs to take charge.  If a seasoned RO has not taken charge then I have to.  I will understand at the start who knows how to run the tablet and who the ROs are, so I know who I can turn to to make the match run more efficient by asking  who is an RO and who has experience running the tablet/nook.  Someone taking charge allows the group understand that if there is only one or two ROs the others are going to have to pull their weight with the tablet, and possibly learn to run the tablet if they never have before.  

 

As far as the BOC goes, every club has them.  Note much you can do about them other than not squad with them.  

[motosapiens]

I'm a bit of a dick about stuff like this, but if someone who is physically capable refuses to help, I don't have any problem just not resetting their stage for their turn to shoot. If that doesn't work, next step is to say we're not running the timer or tablet for you, find another squad.

 

Fortunately we don't seem to really have that problem in my area, or maybe I'm just such a dick I drove all the lazy people to squad with someone else.  Boomstick makes some great points above, that someone needs to take charge, understand who can run the timer and tablet, and help portion out those tasks, and teach newb's how to do their part.

[HCH]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I'm a bit of a dick about stuff like this, but if someone who is physically capable refuses to help, I don't have any problem just not resetting their stage for their turn to shoot. If that doesn't work, next step is to say we're not running the timer or tablet for you, find another squad.

 

Fortunately we don't seem to really have that problem in my area, or maybe I'm just such a dick I drove all the lazy people to squad with someone else.  Boomstick makes some great points above, that someone needs to take charge, understand who can run the timer and tablet, and help portion out those tasks, and teach newb's how to do their part.

 

I agree with this. I sure don’t mind telling someone that they need to help—usually people around here are more than happy running the timer and giving improper range commands, or poking numbers into a tablet—taping and setting steel can be the tough one. 

 

I shot a Pro Am style falling steel match at a very well established club last month. Around stage 3, me and two other guys noticed we were the only ones resetting, and decided we would sit in the shade on the next stage. 

 

That shade sure was nice in the middle of the afternoon. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

The only time I see when people don't want to pick up either one of those items is if they are new, or feel they are not qualified (i.e. new people).  Probably wouldn't let them RO, but getting new people involved with the tablet/nook, is up to the qualified ROs and seasoned shooters.  Especially if there is only one or two ROs on the squad.  This will also help in future matches to have more people comfortable scoring.  

 

 

I emailed USPSA when they came out with the practiscore training videos and explained that if the videos were available to the general public it would help all the USPSA members at local matches.

As always, I got a nicely worded "go pack sand" from hq. 

If they heard from other people possibly it would make a difference. I suspect everyone knows non members who would help score if they were not scared of the software. 

 

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I'm a bit of a dick about stuff like this,

 

Me too. I figure either you are a dick to all the good folks doing their part because you are not stepping up, or you are a dick to the person not doing their part.

 

One thing, if there is a reason a person can not help as much as they would like to (bad back, suffering in the heat, knees hurting bad, other medical condition, etc) please do not keep it a secret. The folks I shoot with are happy to step in and do a little extra when there is a legitimate need. 

[AverageJoeShooting]

I always help paste or run the nook. Turn around and just yell at them "if you ain't shooting then you pastin" that usually works pretty good to get peoples ass in gear and help

[Sarge]

26 minutes ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

I always help paste or run the nook. Turn around and just yell at them "if you ain't shooting then you pastin" that usually works pretty good to get peoples ass in gear and help

Except on deck and last shooter get a pass as well.

  Which is why it’s critical that those who should be working, are.

[AverageJoeShooting]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Except on deck and last shooter get a pass as well.

  Which is why it’s critical that those who should be working, are.

Yea on deck, just shot, or currently shooting gets the pass. Everyone else helps paste. What bothers me is when like A,M or GM shooters don't feel the need to help...as if they have somehow earned the right to not do so. At the end of the day I dont care what initials are in your class at a match you're just like everyone else 

[Nathanb]

I think you can add the md to the gets a pass list. At least for me.  

[Edwards30]

I'm only on my 3rd match but I ran the tablet at the last 2.  That thing is very intimidating, even for a millennial.  People are shouting out Alphas and mikes faster than I can mark them.

The taping nearly everyone should be doing but I've noticed several people who just sit back in between their turn.  I would say they are the exception though for our club.

[-JCN-]

Only give what you can give. Otherwise burnout and resentment. I would have no trouble declining to RO for the guy who didn’t want to work. If someone else wanted to, they can. 
 

I got a paster gun so I can do more work, faster. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by -JCN-

[CHA-LEE]

To the OP's question/rant..... The issue you ran into is usually mitigated by the MD ensuring that each squad is seeded with enough experienced working shooters or certified RO's. Ever since "Self Squading" has been deployed, both on paper or online, the challenge of balancing each squad with effective workers has become much more difficult. For the average competitor when they self squad there is zero attention paid to who on that squad can RO effectively.

 

As an MD who also regularly attends all of the local matches in my section, I know who the workers and consumers are. When I am running my match and I see a squad biased towards primarily having "Consumer" shooters, I will move those people around to other squads. They will whine about getting moved and I will tell them straight up that I can't afford to have a squad full of do nothing dead beats. By not stepping up when needed you lose your choice in where you get to squad. If you want to guarantee your position on a squad you better get to work and help RO. 

 

As a competitor who is also ROing but feel that they are getting taken advantage of by the slacking of the rest of the squad, you need to escalate the issue to the MD so they can step in and solve the issue. As an MD myself, I have had to forfeit my own match so I could move over to a "Dead Beat" squad and take over the ROing and general administration of how the squad should be working through the stages. Its the job of the MD to solve problems, not let their customers suffer through a match.   

[Intheshaw1]

Luckily I mainly shoot with people I know and we all pitch in. And everyone who is a deadbeat is known. Some feign old age and bad knees but after the range is cleared they are running to steal the brass on the ground.

 

For 3 gun, the MD had issues with tear down and clean up and instituted a ban for everyone in a squad if their final stage was not broken down and cleaned up and encouraged people to notify him of anyone who refused to help. This works because the matches are sold out, but I could see how this wouldn't help smaller clubs.

[laz2011]

My advice is speak up . Let them know they need to help reset . But only if they are physical capable. That is a call u have to make .

[AzShooter]

I mostly shoot Steel Challenge these days.  We run squads of 10 shooters and it always get to me how few work.

 

I've taken to telling the squad at the beginning of the match that there are 10 of us and everyone needs to take a turn with timer and scoreboard.  I inevitably get the "I don't know how to..." so I say "Well, now is the time to learn.".  Once they do one of two people they normally keep helping.  Older shooters are a different story.  Some are just lazy.

[Kema]

Hey you just call them range princess and carry on.

[Zincwarrior]

11 hours ago, Edwards30 said:

I'm only on my 3rd match but I ran the tablet at the last 2.  That thing is very intimidating, even for a millennial.  People are shouting out Alphas and mikes faster than I can mark them.

The taping nearly everyone should be doing but I've noticed several people who just sit back in between their turn.  I would say they are the exception though for our club.

Tell them to slow down. I will tell me guys to tell me to slow down if I am going too fast.

[George16]

I shoot with an 81 year old gentleman in our squad. We give him a pass about pasting and scoring since he can barely walk around. However, he still builds classifiers for our two clubs since there are no walls he had to carry and setup.

 

He’s a great old wise man. Always fun to be with and had given me a lot of sage advices.

[RJH]

After years of ROing and score keeping, I really try to not do it anymore, but generally get roped into it for a few shooters in a match.  That said, I have no issue taping targets and setting.  If there are 10 people on our squad chances are solid i am taping for 6 or 7 of them.  And there are always a few people who only want to RO and not tape, so I balance that out:-)

 

 

Forgot to answer the OP:  I tell them lazy bastards to tape/work.  Turns out there are a few people who think I am a dick and don't like to shoot with me.  Also turns out that they are the same ones who don't have any range etiquette, don't tape, and are doing walk throughs after every shooter when they should be working, and I will call them on it.  I also will run people from other squads off if they show up on a stage my squad is shooting and start trying to do walk throughs.  Bad range etiquette should be called out and not tolerated. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by RJH

[stick]

You need to speak up and ask for help!  Everyone except the RO, on deck shooter and last shooter should help out.  If not, call them out!  

 

I will say that most shooters who have shot more than one or two matches, know they need to help out.

[nate89]

We talked a bit about this on last week's Paracast.  I personally have no problem making someone reset the stage before they shoot if they were asked to help and refuse throughout the day.

[rowdyb]

If you're uncomfortable with the conversation (or confrontation) needed to "tune people up" then I suggest finding an enforcer. Find the person in your club who enjoys yelling at people and telling them what to do. I know with covid some matches are not having a shooter's meeting before the match so as not to have 30-100 people in one spot but if you do have a shooter's meeting the emphasis should be on what their (the shooters) expectations are, safety and helping the process.

Edited July 2, 2020 by rowdyb