Marketing USPSA-- from 2020 PCC Nationals Feedback

[ChuckS]

Any more personal and petty bickering and this sucker gets closed.

[echotango]

On 6/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, Whoops! said:

 

Show of hands for anyone who has 8 matches a month that are all full.

 

We do. And you have about 30 seconds to get in once registration opens on most of them. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by echotango

[shred]

My club range has around 1000 members.  They know what USPSA and IDPA are because matches take up half the range every weekend.  They can't miss it, and they bitch about it.

 

About 30 of the club members compete in USPSA or IDPA and that's mostly because they are competitors that joined the range so they could practice there.

 

Another dozen or two attend the "intro to USPSA" class/match and are never seen again.

 

How do we convert that 97% of people there that are shooters, know about USPSA, many of which already have appropriate pistols and pay money every year to be a member of a shooting club,  to have an interest in USPSA?  I love it, we love it, we all tell everyone to try it, but they decide (mostly without even trying) its not for them.

 

Nor does anyone ever have any interest in watching a match unless they think they might want to try it.  Retired competitors don't even come out to watch matches.  Is that a barrier we can even cross without radically changing the sport?

 

And to avoid being entirely negative, one simple thing USPSA could do is publish widely the results of the Nationals Equipment Surveys.  Push 'em on social media, the web site, etc.  Track with the sponsors and gear makers if that moves the needle any from non-competitors or not.  Sadly I suspect mostly "not", but its worth a try.

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Whoops! said:

This is one of the only major sporting bodies in the US that basically says “OK event planners, you do you after you fill out the appropriate paperwork.”

 

 

 

the above is imho a completely false statement. every sport I've participated in (road and mtb bicycle racing, xc skiing, motorcycle and enduro hare scrambles, volleyball,  etc....) is mostly run in a decentralized manner by individual event promoters in accordance with some basic rules, just like USPSA. The national championships are run by the organization, the lower level events are run by someone else.

[Whoops!]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

the above is imho a completely false statement. every sport I've participated in (road and mtb bicycle racing, xc skiing, motorcycle and enduro hare scrambles, volleyball,  etc....) is mostly run in a decentralized manner by individual event promoters in accordance with some basic rules, just like USPSA. The national championships are run by the organization, the lower level events are run by someone else.

 

I said sporting bodies, not sports.  Name some of the sporting bodies that run events with any of those and classify their highest level competitors, and then lets do a direct comparison.
 

Before the thread gets closed, I’d like to add:

 

I’ve RO’d more matches than I can remember.

I never once thought I should get a prize for doing that and always appreciated the people who make USPSA a sport.  
 

You can’t have a sport without competition.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Whoops!

[Whoops!]

1 hour ago, shred said:

My club range has around 1000 members.  They know what USPSA and IDPA are because matches take up half the range every weekend.  They can't miss it, and they bitch about it.

 

About 30 of the club members compete in USPSA or IDPA and that's mostly because they are competitors that joined the range so they could practice there.

 

Another dozen or two attend the "intro to USPSA" class/match and are never seen again.

 

How do we convert that 97% of people there that are shooters, know about USPSA, many of which already have appropriate pistols and pay money every year to be a member of a shooting club,  to have an interest in USPSA?  I love it, we love it, we all tell everyone to try it, but they decide (mostly without even trying) its not for them.

 

Nor does anyone ever have any interest in watching a match unless they think they might want to try it.  Retired competitors don't even come out to watch matches.  Is that a barrier we can even cross without radically changing the sport?

 

And to avoid being entirely negative, one simple thing USPSA could do is publish widely the results of the Nationals Equipment Surveys.  Push 'em on social media, the web site, etc.  Track with the sponsors and gear makers if that moves the needle any from non-competitors or not.  Sadly I suspect mostly "not", but its worth a try.

 

 

This is easiest to address in survey form.

 

Ask the other people in the club why they aren’t doing USPSA and what we can do to encourage them to compete.

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, Whoops! said:

 

This is easiest to address in survey form.

 

Ask the other people in the club why they aren’t doing USPSA and what we can do to encourage them to compete.

You don't need to do a survey. There are several reasons they are not doing USPSA.

 

1. They aren't interested in it. They want to shoot when they want to shoot, and not stand around or paste targets.

2. They think they need to reload to compete, and they are not set up to reload.

3. They have fragile egos. They think if they show up to a match it will show everyone that they can't shoot well.

4. They don't want to spend the money on all the other equipment, only to shoot for 6 minutes on a given day.

5. Most don't want to get better at shooting, they just want to shoot.

 

Face it, this "sport" is not for everyone, nor should it be. 

[IHAVEGAS]

Not a survey, but some reasons it is a niche hobby. 

 

 

 

 

[shred]

3 hours ago, Whoops! said:

This is easiest to address in survey form.

 

Ask the other people in the club why they aren’t doing USPSA and what we can do to encourage them to compete.

 

They have scads of reasons.  Most of which are just excuses thought up on the spot.  A survey isn't going to find anything actionable and we could care less about our Net Promoter Score.

 

[Joe4d]

Well lets just say we wave a magic wand at Shreds club, and quadruple  participation and as a result have to at least double the match range use... Now we have 120 shooters taking up the whole range every weekend.
Guess what the other 820 folks are gonna do when they cant shoot.
Vote with their wallets and POOF ! you have no range at all do to financial collapse.
or Vote with their votes send the BOD packing and eliminate the matches all together.
While not the numbers of Shreds club ratio is the same at mine.. IIRC about 450 members,  maybe a dozen at best at the rifle match. maybe a few more at the pistol. 
Vast majority of shooters are just in it for the hobby. Not competition.

Far as decentralized amateur sports ? Pretty much every one I have ever been involved in works the same way. 
A national org that creates a rule book, handles disputes, sanctions events, usually has an insurance policy and has a small amount of enforcement power to hopefully keep events  with that name fairly uniform in rules and procedures so people go to events and get what they expect. Also often some type of ranking system and some kinda year end big event.
Some folks find a way to make an income out of it. some folks take it more serious than others, and yep usually those are the ones you see placing higher.

Whoops, you seem to think you have all the answers, so really knock yourself out. Go for it, create a great big sport full of sponsor dollars. Call it the XPractical shooting. I hear Vince Mcmahon has some free time.
Or run for USPSA president and get Area directors that share your vision and change USPSA . 

[Racinready300ex]

21 hours ago, Whoops! said:

I’m sorry the people you shoot with are too lazy to make more matches.

 

I'm not sure if you know how this works or not. My club isn't at capacity yet, but it's close I'll use it as a example

 

 

We hold about 8 pistol matches a month between IDPA and USPSA. They aren't quite at capacity but you'll probably be on a 12-14 man squad. For some 12-14 is already to much stand around. Sometimes you'll see 20 to a squad register, typically many don't show. Probably because they dont' want to shoot 20 man squads. I have shot on 20 man squads, it sucks. I'm getting to the point where I'd rather just practice instead of shoot matches. Then only shoot Majors where the squads are typically on 10-12. "Growing the sport" isn't going to make it better in this area. 

 

Now this range also hosts classes, cowboy action, police use it for qualifying, and when they have 1000 yard matches they close all the pistol ranges. On top of all of this we have 1,300 or so members. Those members want to use the range they pay to be a part of. The BOD is not going to give up anymore weekends to matches. If they do there will be to much back lash. The BOD has 3 pistol competitors on it, out of about a dozen guys. We don't have a ton of power there. 

 

If someone wants to grow the sport in this area it's going to take building a new range. 

 

[MikeBurgess]

Locally marketing to grow the sport is literally the last thing we need, 

my club this weekend finally got to run a match after being shut down for Covid, it was a fantastic match for the 84 shooters that got a slot, it was a horrible match for the 40 or so that were not able to get a slot. The match sold out in 6 minutes, pre Covid we were running 110-120 shooters Im sure when we are released to have large matches again we will be back to that level or higher. 

 

 

[Whoops!]

Sorry I didn’t have time to reply earlier.

 

First, don’t think the answers are going to be impossible before trying to find them.

 

Ask the people actually doing it.  Try a survey. Most things can be fixed.  Everything in business can be fixed.

 

Personally, I would not have any squads with more than 10 people.

 

Rather that means making more matches, or building new ranges - it’s doable.
 

Hard - no doubt about it.

 

But doable.

 

And if we convinced the manufacturers to start throwing money around - it would get a lot easier.

 

Let me draw another parallel - automotive manufacturers spend 100’s of millions of dollars a year racing cars they don’t even sell.

 

Because they know the competition sells cars, even if it’s hard to show that ROI.

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, Whoops! said:

Let me draw another parallel - automotive manufacturers spend 100’s of millions of dollars a year racing cars they don’t even sell.

 

As do manufacturers of booze, cigarettes (where still legal), laundry detergent, impotency drugs, fast food, and many other things.

 

Auto racing is exciting to watch, USPSA is boring. When Tide succeeds by televised clothes washing instead of car race promotions then it might be time for USPSA to take notice. 

[Whoops!]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

As do manufacturers of booze, cigarettes (where still legal), laundry detergent, impotency drugs, fast food, and many other things.

 

Auto racing is exciting to watch, USPSA is boring. When Tide succeeds by televised clothes washing instead of car race promotions then it might be time for USPSA to take notice. 

Lol, auto racing is so boring.  
 

Have you ever sat in the stands?

 

Thank god they sell beer.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Lol, auto racing is so boring.

 

"Lol" - definition - "here comes the dumbest thing on the internet today" . 

[-JCN-]

You guys! You're obviously missing the bigger picture.

 

What we should be doing is hyping up BOWLING PIN MATCHES!!!!

 

Think of all the sponsorship we could get from bowling alleys and bowling pin manufacturers!

 

We could even get bowling alleys to install bullet traps behind the pin reset equipment and then SHOOT BOWLING PIN MATCHES AT BOWLING ALLEYS!

 

Win-win! And it could be a model where it takes off to the point where there's a national chain of bowling alleys with indoor gun ranges too! You're thinking too small if you don't see it happening. 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

You guys! You're obviously missing the bigger picture.

 

What we should be doing is hyping up BOWLING PIN MATCHES!!!!

 

Think of all the sponsorship we could get from bowling alleys and bowling pin manufacturers!

 

We could even get bowling alleys to install bullet traps behind the pin reset equipment and then SHOOT BOWLING PIN MATCHES AT BOWLING ALLEYS!

 

Win-win! And it could be a model where it takes off to the point where there's a national chain of bowling alleys with indoor gun ranges too! You're thinking too small if you don't see it happening. 

 

 

 

I'm in!

 

Anything that gets us sharing shoes with each other has got to be a good thing!

[Balakay]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

"Lol" - definition - "here comes the dumbest thing on the internet today" . 

[pjb45]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:21 PM, ima45dv8 said:

You are a bit off the mark here. You are waaayyyy overestimating the size ("...one of the biggest competitions in the country...") of this event as it relates to this $50 billion industry AS A WHOLE. There were 248 entries according to USPSA.org. GSSF matches routinely run over 500 entries, with a great many topping 1,000. And that IS an industry event run by a manufacturer.  

 

You say if they're in the top 5 they should be going home with more than a $2400.00 gun? What do you think they should have gotten, and how should that prize pool be financed? You mentioned the top 5, so I guess you're saying the prizes should have totaled somewhere upwards of $12,000.00 just for the top 5.

 

Put on your MD hat for a second and tell us how you would make sure those funds were available. And don't forget paying all of the other expenses besides prizes for the top 5.

 

Pardon me if I sound toxic or infectious, but I've run very large matches and am simply hoping to get some overdue edjamacation. 

edjamacation---great word!!!!

 

[pjb45]

On 6/23/2020 at 8:53 AM, Ming the Merciless said:

Newspeak dictionary

 

Toxic:  Any debate use of factual, scientific, or real world experience data.

 

Mean Spirited: Any debate opponent's use of factual, scientific, or real world experience data.

+1  very astute !

 

[pjb45]

On 6/22/2020 at 8:21 PM, ltdmstr said:

Not sure how giving big prizes to the top shooters is an attraction for everyone else.  And I really don't see why the same people should win guns and stuff at the big matches when they just turn around and sell it anyway.  If that's why they're in it, maybe they should try a professional sport, which this really is not.

 

As for the lack of good prizes in general, part of the problem is that pretty much the same companies are hit up for dozens of matches every year.  In most cases, those that do pony up get little or no ROI.  And although this sport may be important to us, it's merely a blip in terms of industry sales, which are constantly up an down depending on which way the political winds are blowing.

 

You make a great observation(s). I tend to agree with you.

 

We have had prize table threads before and I have seen some pretty good changes in local/regional matches e.g., top shooters in each class getting a first walk through, then random drawings where everyone gets a chance.

 

ETEcho made a great point but underestimated the number of matches in AZ.  I would have to go back to work to afford all the match fees  

[Southpaw]

12 hours ago, Whoops! said:

Personally, I would not have any squads with more than 10 people.

 

Rather that means making more matches, or building new ranges - it’s doable.

 

Can you please build more ranges here?  Thanks

 

All our ranges are fully booked with matches and matches fill within 1 minute, with squads much larger than 10.

[Whoops!]

7 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

Can you please build more ranges here?  Thanks

 

All our ranges are fully booked with matches and matches fill within 1 minute, with squads much larger than 10.

Why would anyone want to get into a business where the people participating in it are so toxic and don’t even believe in what they are doing?

 

Fear and insecurity don’t make a good customer base.

 

It’s not that you guys have the only boring amateur sport, it’s that the business environment is obviously not conducive due to the mentality of the average participant involved.
 

In this thread alone, we have three people representing firearm’s or gear manufacturers who love cheap advertising, many insecure retired people who don’t want their “hobby” to amount to anything that could take the spotlight off of them, and a couple toxic posters who would be just as well served by the Doodie Project.

 

Also, to be clear, it is boring to watch most of you shoot.  It’s not boring to watch the real competitors shoot.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Whoops!

[-JCN-]

19 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Why would anyone want to get into a business where the people participating in it are so toxic and don’t even believe in what they are doing?

 

Fear and insecurity don’t make a good customer base.

 

It’s not that you guys have the only boring amateur sport, it’s that the business environment is obviously not conducive due to the mentality of the average participant involved.
 

In this thread alone, we have three people representing firearm’s or gear manufacturers who love cheap advertising, many insecure retired people who don’t want their “hobby” to amount to anything that could take the spotlight off of them, and a couple toxic posters who would be just as well served by the Doodie Project.

 

Also, to be clear, it is boring to watch most of you shoot.  It’s not boring to watch the real competitors shoot.

 

 

It’s almost like the sponsors could spend their money on marketable individual shooters themselves like Lena / Jerry / Max / Ashley / JJ / etc and bypass the “sport funding” and “range building”....

 

Wait... what?