Marketing USPSA-- from 2020 PCC Nationals Feedback

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

It’s a matter of respect for not just what is being done, but also for the people really doing it.

 

In this hobby respect goes to those who dedicate their time and effort, at a loss, to putting on the matches.

 

Good shooters are a dime a dozen, good workers are what gives us a place to shoot. 

[Whoops!]

9 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

In this hobby respect goes to those who dedicate their time and effort, at a loss, to putting on the matches.

 

Good shooters are a dime a dozen, good workers are what gives us a place to shoot. 

I wouldn’t even be responding to this if not for the myriad of you who have fooled yourselves into this.
 

 

The big matches wouldn’t exist.

 

No sponsors.

 

No people willing to organize them.

 

If not for the good shooters.

 

The entire “hobby” would be locally run and the people competing would look like the novices they are.

 

We would never be able to see what true competition looks like and we would never be respected for what we do.

 

 

If good shooters are a dime a dozen, why do the same people win every year?

 

Those are the people who make our sport what it is.  

Those are the people who deserve the respect for what they bring to the table.

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, Whoops! said:

I wouldn’t even be responding to this if not for the myriad of you who have fooled yourselves into this.

 

When it is you against a myriad of more experienced individuals, "here's your sign". 

[Whoops!]

7 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

When it is you against a myriad of more experienced individuals, "here's your sign". 

Don’t kid yourself, you have to learn from things for them to become experience.

 

It’s not just a matter of time.

 

Meanwhile, the learning you’ve done is only going to help ensure future generations won’t be able to compete in our sport.

 

If it is a hobby, prove it by making a better gun than mine so that you do better than me.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Whoops!

[IHAVEGAS]

6 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Don’t kid yourself, you have to learn from things for them to become experience.

 

It’s not just a matter of time.

 

Generic insult, relevant to nothing. 

[RJH]

On 6/22/2020 at 8:39 AM, Whoops! said:

 

 

When I go to a gun store, how come I never see a poster advertising USPSA?  When I buy a gun specifically made for the sport (Shadow 2, Stock II, MPX PCC, Glock 34, Walther q5 Match, ETC.), how come I never see a pamphlet advertising USPSA in the gun case?

 

Why is the magazine generated by the organization only available to people who are ALREADY members?

 

 

I am not getting into a bunch of the BS in this thread, but this is actually some good points.  My "introduction" to USPSA was the Shooting USA tv show (but I think it was called something different back then), and unless you stumble across it on the net or Shooting USA, you could easily go to gun stores and gun shows your whole life and never be exposed to USPSA.  I used to have a gun range and am the only person I know of that tried to promote USPSA/3 gun at gunshows, though I am sure there are others, I never saw them, even at bigger gun shows and stores in bigger cities

[Racinready300ex]

There were 250 people at PCC nationals this year. The winners video from 2019 has 14k views in the last year. I just did a quick search of youtube and found a Pokemon North America Championship video that was also a year old. It has over 500k views.  Fortenite world cup is at 4 Million views. Madden is at 1 Million views. See the difference?

 

Sponsors want people to see them, but no one is watching USPSA. This sport is really boring to watch unless you're in it, and even then most people in it don't watch video's either. 

[Shadyscott999]

don't we have this conversation every couple years?  It all boils down to too many major matchs and little to zero ROI for sponsors. 
Nobody watches this sport which is a speck on the radar in the still small gun industry.  
To the average gun owner it's not really impressive to watch.  I have showed non uspsa friends videos of some of my stage wins at majors.  Every single one of them thought they could do the same or better.  They just don't know what they don't know.  

Regarding the swinger, one of the main reasons I go to Frostpoof is to see what evil Shannon cooks up.  

As someone who has shot close to 100k rounds a year in practice a lot of years, it's a bouquet hobby game.  

[Ming the Merciless]

4 hours ago, Whoops! said:

My position hasn’t changed with any of my edits.  Wording or quotes were changed because it’s hard to add multiple quotes on a phone.

 

Why would I even try to inform anyone who thinks running with live guns and shooting targets at the speed of reaction time is more of a hobby than kicking a ball across a field?

 

 

I’m not surprised at all.  
 

But, the magical direct linkage that so many here are looking for where someone goes into a store and says “I bought this because of the lizard commercial (or USPSA)” doesn’t exist and never will.

The method of linking commercials to products is much more difficult than it would be to link USPSA to massive amounts of income for the industry.  The television industry simply took the time to create the equations necessary to satiate the companies spending money.

 

 

Actually, your argument is faulty and there’s a simple explanation.

 

Think of USPSA like a pay to play game.

 

But, instead of charging $5 for coins or an electronic outfit, it ends up charging $2000 for a rifle or $300 for a gear belt.

 

All of a sudden, not that many players still blows your mind, doesn’t it?

 

I was going to explain more, but then decided not to because of how much I don’t trust the people in this thread. (People who didn’t even compete at PCC Nationals, by the way)

 

 

I heard an excellent quote "Anything is possible....when you know nothing"

 

So please prove us wrong, great minds of the past did NOT let a few naysayers dissuade them, so don't let less than a dozen people on this forum stop you.  Go forth, become the biggest, greatest Match producer, & promoter we've ever seen, then you can come back and say "I told you so!" 

 

There are a few people within the industry you can start talking to about doing this that are both top level shooters and who have promoted and produced Major matches.  Start with Phil Strader, who started the Pro-Am steel matches and has worked at several major gun manufacturers.  Then talk to USPSA President Mike Foley who used to work for Shooters Connection.  Shannon Smith has already stated he's willing to talk and Shannon has put on some of the best and biggest matches around.

 

Or you can just say the big bad mean spirited toxic mens have hurt your feelings and you're going to go sulk.

[mikeg1005]

5 hours ago, Whoops! said:

The method of linking commercials to products is much more difficult than it would be to link USPSA to massive amounts of income for the industry.

 

I got a question. 

 

USPSA will never be a televised event,  so 100% of the exposure is related to matches themselves.  How many people do you think the average USPSA major match reaches and of those... how many do you think are interested in stuff the mainline firearms industry guys offer? 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

don't we have this conversation every couple years?  It all boils down to too many major matchs and little to zero ROI for sponsors. 
Nobody watches this sport which is a speck on the radar in the still small gun industry.  
To the average gun owner it's not really impressive to watch.  I have showed non uspsa friends videos of some of my stage wins at majors.  Every single one of them thought they could do the same or better.  They just don't know what they don't know.  

 

this is the real problem with action shooting in general as a spectator sport (and also with defensive use of force controversies) Hollywood has led the general public to believe that it is not on possible but not that hard to hit a 50yd head shot one handed while diving a motorcycle out the back of a airplane. Show them a great run on one of our stages on video with no slomo bullet impacting shots and they go um sure anyone can do that.

Edited June 24, 2020 by MikeBurgess
spelling

[Youngeyes]

"50yd head shot one handed while diving a motorcycle out the back of a airplane"

That's only for IPSC. 

[rowdyb]

I have shot at least 9 Nationals matches that Shannon has run. At every singe one of them there has been one "thing" where I felt I was kinda just shooting and hoping hahaha. But nothing where it would keep me from returning. Obviously.

 

Back when I cared I and my lawyer had a meeting with a sports marketing agent in Los Angeles who represented Olympic bi-athletes, Travis Pastrana and other x-games/ non traditional sports athletes. Here are some of the questions we were asked

• Is your sport on TV?
• Is your sport in the Olympics?
• Can I read about your sport in a magazine sold at the grocery store?
• Is your sport streamed on the web?
• How often is your world championships? National Championships?
• How many people in the US participate in your sport? How many people finish in the top 10%? Are you one?
• If we made a "Rowdy" edition something or other, how many could we sell?
• Is there a delineation between the amateurs and the pros? Which lead to them asking how many people are M and GM.
• How much money do you win? What is the value or your current sponsorship? How much would it cost to fully fund you for a year?

They didn't care it was shooting. It was entirely a numbers game. They said they weren't interested in something only worth "Tens of thousands, we deal in millions. Millions of people, units and dollars." Their advice was to get a personal publicist and do all I could to raise my personal profile. Nothing about our sport needing to grow. So to make this not about me, but about Nationals and some thoughts mentioned here you can see from the questions above what would have to be answered for real money to matter.

 

And do you really want practical shooting to become "Pro"? Thinking about what happened to other fringe things that went through a similar process. Surfing, rock climbing, and so on. The dudes in professional axe throwing, it's on TV, make more from one weekend than anyone in shooting does in a year who isn't getting a check or a 10-99 from a manufacturer.

 

On a personal note I've made money from USPSA shooting by 1. Writing articles for Front Sight 2. Working for my sponsor in an official capacity 3.Leveraging my reputation to teach classes locally. I've been given a check at the end of a match precisely 4 times in over 300 matches. And those were never more than $115 a piece.

[shred]

I really understood that USPSA was not but a pimple on the gun worlds' butt when I went to SHOT a few years back. 

 

Eric Grauffel was hanging around the Armscor booth and the only people talking to him were people he already knew.  Jerry Miculek, Lena and Kay were behind a table on one of the main aisles and you could walk right up to them.  At least they were getting more traffic than Eric, or Max who was mostly wandering aimlessly around the Sig booth.  Springfield did a demo with TGO and other pros a couple times, to a crowd of dozens.

 

The wait in line to see Gunny at Glock was two to three hours long for the entire show. 

 

People that were early-round washouts on Top Shot got more love than top USPSA shooters.

 

Without pulling the eyeballs, USPSA will never pull the bucks.

[Whoops!]

Chuck, will do; but, let me respond to everyone real quick before I respond to the good points brought up in the last two posts.
 

 

Everyone notice how themes keep popping up?

 

Negative, often unrelated themes that latch on to one thing?

 

The most recent one seems to be people don’t like watching USPSA.

 

Let’s stop for a moment and think about this.

 

Do you like to watch target shooting?

 

Do you especially like to watch complex target shooting with large courses?

 

Like they had on a successful History channel show called Top Shot?

 

When you were watching Top Shot, weren’t there times when you thought “just show me the shooting!?”
 

Then why do you think people don’t like to watch target shooting?

 

There are plenty of successful USPSA Youtube vids.  They have millions of views.

 

They don’t have USPSA or any type of nationals in the title.

 

Because people don’t know what those two things are.

 

 

We can resign ourselves to failure if we want.

 

It’s easy.

 

We can all be content with our weekend matches until the Assault Weapons Ban of 2021 or the Assault Weapons Ban of 2025.

 

That’s easy too.

 

But god damn - when video game players call what they do a “sport” on nationally televised TV and when board gaming conventions have thousands of attendees who just watch people play board games, I think our sport has a pretty good shot if everyone doing it would get behind it.

 

I think if we got behind it, and started offering prizes people took notice of, and started talking up our sport for the legit contest of skill that it is, our country could make the best shooters in the world.

 

I even think we could influence a “competitive firearms exemption” for the inevitable legislation that threatens our favorite pastime.

 

Now look, I’m not saying any of you need to help.

 

What I am saying is that if you would be proud of this, of what you do, of what you enjoy doing . . .

 

I can use accepted Marketing principles to show it is worth more money than any of you and even the firearms’ industry currently thinks

Now, on to the last two, great posts:

 

That list of questions is probably verbatim from the sports marketing agent.

 

That is a great example of why we need bigger prizes (mainly the top prize).  Also a good example of the reason I asked why Front Sight is only given to people who are already members.

 

USPSA Nationals do need to be streamed on the web.

 

Every other question builds by us getting more people into the sport.

 

To answer rowdy’s question - yes, it needs to be pro.

 

If we don’t evolve to that level, the sport is going to die in our country.  Public opinion is not going in the right direction.

For Shred - 100%.  People just don’t know USPSA exists.  
 

But just because they don’t know it exists - doesn’t mean any of you should think they don’t want to know it exists.

 

[Intheshaw1]

So why don't we take the approach of the US Open. Smaller matches that gain you entry to the one large match. Factory shooters would be the pros that gain entry and everyone else would be listed as an amateur.

 

Then figure out how to make the camera work interesting. Run it like golf where it transitions for player to player with very little downtime shown.

 

I think it could be done, but would it be sustainable or would it fizzle out. I used to be big in paintball and was a sponsored player by the local paintball field. It was great to see the push to make it to TV but that didn't last long. Sure, you can end up on ESPN 47 but that doesn't bring in the money.

[shred]

5 hours ago, Whoops! said:

For Shred - 100%.  People just don’t know USPSA exists.  
 

But just because they don’t know it exists - doesn’t mean any of you should think they don’t want to know it exists.

 

Everybody at SHOT knows USPSA exists, they just don't care about it because it's such a tiny percentage of the market.  USPSA/IPSC used to be a major player when there was a Team Colt and Team Smith and Wesson and Team Springfield and so on.  Now not so much.

 

Until that changes, and the only things I've seen suggested are 'Marketing!' (to who, where?) and "Big Prizes".  3 gun tried TV and big prizes and had some success, but not this kind of breakthrough... I'm all for fixing it, but I'm not seeing it.

 

 

[Whoops!]

4 hours ago, shred said:

Everybody at SHOT knows USPSA exists, they just don't care about it because it's such a tiny percentage of the market.  USPSA/IPSC used to be a major player when there was a Team Colt and Team Smith and Wesson and Team Springfield and so on.  Now not so much.

 

Until that changes, and the only things I've seen suggested are 'Marketing!' (to who, where?) and "Big Prizes".  3 gun tried TV and big prizes and had some success, but not this kind of breakthrough... I'm all for fixing it, but I'm not seeing it.

 

 

 

Shot is industry.  Industry only cares about dollars.  Showing where the dollars are requires people.  Both competing and forming the linkage.

 

Linking the Dollars = respect from Shot Show and input from the big players again.

 

I wasn’t saying people at Shot don’t know it exists.  I’m saying people, in general, who go out and buy guns and use ammo - don’t know it exists.

 

I am going to fill in a little more of the puzzle though.

Or, don’t have an easy way to learn how to do it.

 

Further, USPSA shooters spend much more, on average, than than the typical gun owner in the industry.

 

The cost of acquisition for USPSA shooters has never been properly calculated because the proper - growth oriented marketing strategies have never been used.

 

If we can show the industry that by converting normal gun owners to USPSA shooters, each gun owner will spend a multitude more money on the industry and that it is easier to make that acquisition than ever before -

 

We can give them a direct marketing strategy where money into us = more money for them.

 

Likely, at a lower rate and more consistent output than any of the other marketing they are using.

 

 

Combine that with bigger prizes and we’d see growth and respect for our sport like we’ve never seen before.

 

 

I hope the admin sees this as staying on topic - essentially, it is the long way around of justifying my nationals’ feedback.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Whoops!

[IHAVEGAS]

This could actually morph into a useful discussion if ideas were concerned with first principles.

 

If you increased the number of shooters, significantly where would you first find the additional ranges for them to shoot at? Squads over 12 people tend to suck and drive shooters away, some clubs are already struggling to deal with too much success. 

 

If somebody was to find the additional ranges where would you first find all of the additional trained free help? As is, the biggest hindrance to expansion or just maintaining is the massive amount of work involved in this volunteer sport. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by IHAVEGAS

[BeerBaron]

On 6/24/2020 at 9:22 PM, Whoops! said:

My position hasn’t changed with any of my edits.  Wording or quotes were changed because it’s hard to add multiple quotes on a phone.

 

Why would I even try to inform anyone who thinks running with live guns and shooting targets at the speed of reaction time is more of a hobby than kicking a ball across a field?

 

 

I’m not surprised at all.  
 

But, the magical direct linkage that so many here are looking for where someone goes into a store and says “I bought this because of the lizard commercial (or USPSA)” doesn’t exist and never will.

The method of linking commercials to products is much more difficult than it would be to link USPSA to massive amounts of income for the industry.  The television industry simply took the time to create the equations necessary to satiate the companies spending money.

 

 

Actually, your argument is faulty and there’s a simple explanation.

 

Think of USPSA like a pay to play game.

 

But, instead of charging $5 for coins or an electronic outfit, it ends up charging $2000 for a rifle or $300 for a gear belt.

 

All of a sudden, not that many players still blows your mind, doesn’t it?

 

I was going to explain more, but then decided not to because of how much I don’t trust the people in this thread. (People who didn’t even compete at PCC Nationals, by the way)

 

None of what you said addresses my explanation at all. 

 

Your assumption about the size of the market and uspsa’s place within that market is what I was addressing. And that’s fundamental to your whole premise. 

 

Uspsa is not practical shooting. 

 

Just like tae kwan do is not martial arts. 

 

The product of uspsa is not the matches. 

[BeerBaron]

14 hours ago, shred said:

I really understood that USPSA was not but a pimple on the gun worlds' butt when I went to SHOT a few years back. 

 

Eric Grauffel was hanging around the Armscor booth and the only people talking to him were people he already knew.  Jerry Miculek, Lena and Kay were behind a table on one of the main aisles and you could walk right up to them.  At least they were getting more traffic than Eric, or Max who was mostly wandering aimlessly around the Sig booth.  Springfield did a demo with TGO and other pros a couple times, to a crowd of dozens.

 

The wait in line to see Gunny at Glock was two to three hours long for the entire show. 

 

People that were early-round washouts on Top Shot got more love than top USPSA shooters.

 

Without pulling the eyeballs, USPSA will never pull the bucks.

 

Exactly. Uspsa is a subset of subset of a niche. 

 

And its fanstastic the way it is. 

 

We dont need mega bucks and bigger matches etc. 

 

growth just for the sake of growth is actually toxic and just dilutes the sport even further. 

[mikeg1005]

17 hours ago, Whoops! said:

The most recent one seems to be people don’t like watching USPSA.

 

Let’s stop for a moment and think about this.

 

Do you like to watch target shooting?

 

Do you especially like to watch complex target shooting with large courses?

 

Like they had on a successful History channel show called Top Shot?

 

When you were watching Top Shot, weren’t there times when you thought “just show me the shooting!?”
 

Then why do you think people don’t like to watch target shooting?

 

There are plenty of successful USPSA Youtube vids.  They have millions of views.

 

They don’t have USPSA or any type of nationals in the title.

 

Because people don’t know what those two things are.

 

 

USPSA is boring to watch.

 

USPSA isn't like 'watching' target shooting... target shooting is simple.  Here is a gun, here is a target, shoot it.  The average person can watch bullseye and understand the goal, they can do the same with trap, skeet, or long range rifle shooting.   USPSA is completely inconsistent due to stages changing, points on each stage changing, and HF being hard to comprehended since it seems the world SUCKS at math. 

 

USPSA is hard to follow... Top Shot was SUPER easy... here is a gun... here is a balloon, shoot it as fast as you can.

 

Top Shot was reality TV show, not a shooting show... I know people who are on it and who tried out for it, the #1 goal of the producers during the 'final' week for selecting people was to see who would fit in together/clash well.  They had 1 day of actual shooting and were told that your performance doesn't impact your placement on the show. 

 

Youtube ACTIVELY demonizes shooting/gun 'only' related things.. this is a know fact.  They hide content, etc. and those who succeed do a lot to get around it.  Which includes not mentioning anything gun related in the title. 

 

 

[mikeg1005]

Everyone pushing for nationals and all of this stuff to be meanstream/on TV/more publicized. 

 

Who here, doesn't want to shoot nationals in exchange for the above. 

 

I can tell you right now that you will not be able to run 300-400+ shooters through a match, multiple days long and expect a full camera crew coverage, etc. of each stage.... most matches run on the brink of failure as having a 5-10 min hold up on 1 stage will impact EVERYTHING.  Next time you're at Nationals go notice how Shooting USA sets up for their filming... they do a really good job at being non-intrusive.  Now imagine that, on every stage, from multiple angles.... and try to run 20 squads a day through this. 

 

So as a result... Nationals or any of these televised matches will be VERY expensive to get into since the quantity of participants will be cut back (people bitch about match fees going up $25 now imagine it costing $100-1000s more)... or Nationals will be limited to the top guys and almost all of Enos will not have a shot at going. 

 

[mikeg1005]

17 hours ago, Whoops! said:

USPSA Nationals do need to be streamed on the web.

 

 

They used to be.. BritUSA or whoever did it.

 

NO ONE beyond nuthuggers on Enos watched it. 

[mikeg1005]

9 hours ago, Whoops! said:

Further, USPSA shooters spend much more, on average, than than the typical gun owner in the industry.

 

The cost of acquisition for USPSA shooters has never been properly calculated because the proper - growth oriented marketing strategies have never been used.

 

If we can show the industry that by converting normal gun owners to USPSA shooters, each gun owner will spend a multitude more money on the industry and that it is easier to make that acquisition than ever before -

 

We can give them a direct marketing strategy where money into us = more money for them.

 

We don't need more new shooters in this sport... we need more venues to hold matches.  

 

The biggest limiting factor to USPSA is the lack or ranges to shoot club matches followed by large/level 3 matches. 

 

Add in the fact that expenditure on average to shoot a 6 stage club match is ~$100, this is not a sport for the average gun owner, its one for gun owners with disposable income.