Marketing USPSA-- from 2020 PCC Nationals Feedback

[ltdmstr]

Not sure how giving big prizes to the top shooters is an attraction for everyone else.  And I really don't see why the same people should win guns and stuff at the big matches when they just turn around and sell it anyway.  If that's why they're in it, maybe they should try a professional sport, which this really is not.

 

As for the lack of good prizes in general, part of the problem is that pretty much the same companies are hit up for dozens of matches every year.  In most cases, those that do pony up get little or no ROI.  And although this sport may be important to us, it's merely a blip in terms of industry sales, which are constantly up an down depending on which way the political winds are blowing.

[Whoops!]

34 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Not sure how giving big prizes to the top shooters is an attraction for everyone else.  And I really don't see why the same people should win guns and stuff at the big matches when they just turn around and sell it anyway.  If that's why they're in it, maybe they should try a professional sport, which this really is not.

 

As for the lack of good prizes in general, part of the problem is that pretty much the same companies are hit up for dozens of matches every year.  In most cases, those that do pony up get little or no ROI.  And although this sport may be important to us, it's merely a blip in terms of industry sales, which are constantly up an down depending on which way the political winds are blowing.

This mentality is toxic and infectious.

 

The people who downplay the achievements of the top competitors in this sport (people who are idolized simply for the skill they’ve achieved) should be ashamed.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Whoops!

[ima45dv8]

15 hours ago, Whoops! said:

If you are in the top 5 at one of the biggest competitions in the country (involved with a $50 billion dollar industry) - you should be going home with more than a $2400 gun.

You are a bit off the mark here. You are waaayyyy overestimating the size ("...one of the biggest competitions in the country...") of this event as it relates to this $50 billion industry AS A WHOLE. There were 248 entries according to USPSA.org. GSSF matches routinely run over 500 entries, with a great many topping 1,000. And that IS an industry event run by a manufacturer.  

 

You say if they're in the top 5 they should be going home with more than a $2400.00 gun? What do you think they should have gotten, and how should that prize pool be financed? You mentioned the top 5, so I guess you're saying the prizes should have totaled somewhere upwards of $12,000.00 just for the top 5.

 

Put on your MD hat for a second and tell us how you would make sure those funds were available. And don't forget paying all of the other expenses besides prizes for the top 5.

 

Pardon me if I sound toxic or infectious, but I've run very large matches and am simply hoping to get some overdue edjamacation. 

[ltdmstr]

55 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

This mentality is toxic and infectious.

 

The people who downplay the achievements of the top competitors in this sport (people who are idolized simply for the skill they’ve achieved) should be ashamed.

 

Toxic and infectious to whom?  People living in a fantasy world that's completely detached from reality?  For 99+ percent of us, this is a hobby, not a profession.  So how does the 99+ percent benefit from a handful of guys getting all the good prizes at every match, and the rest getting some gun lube or useless chotckie?  I don't see anyone downplaying the achievements of the top shooters.  Personally, I respect them and am impressed by what they've accomplished.  If they want to earn a living from shooting, there are ways to do that.  Picking stuff off of prize table is is never going to be one of those.  If you want a dose of reality, do as Nolan suggested and try running a prize table at a major match.  Personally, I'd give the prizes to the people working the matches and trophies to the top competitors.

Edited June 23, 2020 by ltdmstr

[Whoops!]

6 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

You are a bit off the mark here. You are waaayyyy overestimating the size ("...one of the biggest competitions in the country...") of this event as it relates to this $50 billion industry AS A WHOLE. There were 248 entries according to USPSA.org. GSSF matches routinely run over 500 entries, with a great many topping 1,000. And that IS an industry event run by a manufacturer.  

 

You say if they're in the top 5 they should be going home with more than a $2400.00 gun? What do you think they should have gotten, and how should that prize pool be financed? You mentioned the top 5, so I guess you're saying the prizes should have totaled somewhere upwards of $12,000.00 just for the top 5.

 

Put on your MD hat for a second and tell us how you would make sure those funds were available. And don't forget paying all of the other expenses besides prizes for the top 5.

 

Pardon me if I sound toxic or infectious, but I've run very large matches and am simply hoping to get some overdue edjamacation. 

 

I have some video game industry insight here.  I’ll provide some after I’m content about something else in this thread.

 

6 hours ago, Matt1 said:

What I took from this post was that if the prizes were better you would have tried harder and done better. Close enough?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Personally, no.  No time or ammo for pcc this year.

 

Those points were simply to illustrate how close the competition actually was with me ending up that far back.  Which, was a big pro - shows success is achievable with practice.

 

One of the main points with the prizes is that if the top prize was big enough, we’d see names we’ve never seen before at the top of that leaderboard.

 

6 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Personally, I'd give the prizes to the people working the matches and trophies to the top competitors.

 

 All sports are a hobby for 99% of the people involved.  Also, this attitude makes the absolute worst type of RO.  So many hateful, toxic people here. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Whoops!

[ltdmstr]

9 hours ago, Whoops! said:

Also, this attitude makes the absolute worst type of RO.  So many hateful, toxic people here. 

 

How does this work?  I think it shows appreciation for their efforts, which are often considerable.  And without which, those big matches wouldn't be possible.  And you still haven't explained how having big prizes for a few top shooters is a benefit to everyone, and how it increases participation in the sport.  Or how that would be possible.  Instead, you call people names simply because they disagree with you.  Some of the people who've commented above have a great deal of experience in running matches and prize tables.  They're talking from experience on what the reality of the situation is.  If you want to change that reality, I don't think anyone is going to try to stop you.  But just complaining and calling people names isn't going to help.

[Whoops!]

38 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

How does this work?  I think it shows appreciation for their efforts, which are often considerable.  And without which, those big matches wouldn't be possible.  And you still haven't explained how having big prizes for a few top shooters is a benefit to everyone, and how it increases participation in the sport.  Or how that would be possible.  Instead, you call people names simply because they disagree with you.  Some of the people who've commented above have a great deal of experience in running matches and prize tables.  They're talking from experience on what the reality of the situation is.  If you want to change that reality, I don't think anyone is going to try to stop you.  But just complaining and calling people names isn't going to help.

 

That’s not calling someone a name, that’s describing the type of behavior someone is repeatedly showing.

 

I would be happy to offer more information on industry relations, market research, competitive analysis, and financial administration to any group I trust and especially to one I believe in.

 

 

This group lost a lot of trust very fast.

[ltdmstr]

6 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

 

That’s not calling someone a name, that’s describing the type of behavior someone is repeatedly showing.

 

I would be happy to offer more information on industry relations, market research, competitive analysis, and financial administration to any group I trust and especially to one I believe in.

 

 

This group lost a lot of trust very fast.

 

Wow, classic troll response.  Zero solutions and more put-downs.

[Intheshaw1]

I get the appeal of big prizes but big prizes are driven based on the ROI. Video games give out the big prizes because they know the ROI is a lot greater. Everything is driven based on social media and advertising now. I've had a few sponsored shooters tell me this as well as a guy I know who makes a living playing video games.

 

It would be great to see big, recognized matches. But until there is a lot of money to be made directly from USPSA matches, whether from advertising, streaming, or something else then prizes will still mostly be donated prizes. I get that's the basis of your argument to grow matches, but without action it's just a dream. 

 

Maybe you could set up a local match, stream it, and give away a $50k prize and see how it goes?

[Ming the Merciless]

Newspeak dictionary

 

Toxic:  Any debate use of factual, scientific, or real world experience data.

 

Mean Spirited: Any debate opponent's use of factual, scientific, or real world experience data.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Ming the Merciless

[SmittyFL]

13 hours ago, Whoops! said:

 

You’re telling me the stage designers didn’t shoot that exact same swinger with a pcc at that distance prior to scored runs?

 

 

I thought guaranf@(kinteed was pretty clear. But to answer your direct question, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I am the stage designer, I built it with basically one other guy, our employee. Had couple other dudes at the end nailing stuff down. 

 

It was in the multigun match the week prior. Different presentation but same distance. I missed it then also but with .223 from prone. 

 

I'm all for your other ideas, you find a way to get $10K to the winner and I'll help. 

 

But I take exception to anyone questioning the integrity of myself or the match. 

 

[CClassForLife]

If we're continuing with the analogy. The firearm industry is to the video game industry as USPSA is to an indie game with 31,000 players no one knows about. This is the reason that nearly everyone has issue with the #1 stated con from the original post. How are we toxic by pointing out the fact that the numbers can't support the prize tables? That's like me calling you toxic and hateful if you don't think that the GoldenEye speed-running community should have $100,000 prize pools.

[IHAVEGAS]

Never understood why there are any prizes for placement beyond a plaque or trophy.  

The top shooters are going to be there because of personal reasons (like everybody else) or because they need more bona fides as advertisement. 

If a match is suffering from an excess of funding and gifts I think there are 1,000 other things to do with that excess that would better support the sport. 

 

[RaylanGivens]

Great match, @SmittyFL

 

Stages were well designed...  Each stage had a significant unique point about it...  RO's did a good job...  Weather turned out to be perfect for the whole weekend...  Maybe a tad hot, but match was a lot of fun...  Good work!

 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, SmittyFL said:

 

I thought guaranf@(kinteed was pretty clear. But to answer your direct question, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I am the stage designer, I built it with basically one other guy, our employee. Had couple other dudes at the end nailing stuff down. 

 

It was in the multigun match the week prior. Different presentation but same distance. I missed it then also but with .223 from prone. 

 

I'm all for your other ideas, you find a way to get $10K to the winner and I'll help. 

 

But I take exception to anyone questioning the integrity of myself or the match. 

 

I'll vouch for Shannon although there's not a single person that's ever met him that would think that necessary. He has ALWAYS been professional and receptive to feedback. Both this thread and my own in person suggestions this weekend are proof of that. He's a stand up person whose reputation is beyond reproach. He's also a hell of a shooter. 

As for industry support, the improvements that USPSA and Universal have made over the past few years have been spectacular. I love the direction they are going. I love what they have done to grow the sport but then again I've read the monthly BOD minutes, yearly reports and spoken with the President, Media Coordinator and AD's. 

Whoops (Zach), you sound like the kind of person that quite honestly I don't care to be around. If you think this sport is about prize tables maybe it's time to sell the guns and find a new hobby. Posts like this make you sound like a baby back bitch. If you want to really grow the sport, run a local club for a year. Be there every month for every match. Set up, tear down, help shooters, put the SPORT first. THEN If you want to really grow the sport, think about what a top prize table walk would mean for a RO that worked their ass off all weekend so you could shoot. 

Brian is there any way to sticky this horrific post to remind people not to be "That Guy"? 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Darqusoull13

[ChuckS]

OK, girls, any more personal stuff and this thread is closed. Let's keep it on feedback from the PCC Nats.

[ima45dv8]

57 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

I’m not going to give help to a group of people who insult someone trying to give constructive feedback, but I will say this as a closing thought.

 

Can any industry show a direct ROI with commercials, or do they use marketing research and accepted calculations to prove the commercials worked?

 

After about two months of research, I could prove USPSA works to the major sporting goods franchises and have a whole new level of potential input for our sport.
 

But, I’d never be willing to start putting in that effort when the people organizing and working the matches don’t have respect for what they’re running and refer to it as a “hobby.”

 

Shannon is a good guy, I’ve always looked up to him as a shooter.  I can’t make the same statement about many other people in this thread.
 

As I said to begin with,

 

Just because something is good (in this case the 2020 PCC Nationals) doesn’t mean it can’t be incredible (in 2021).

Where do I begin? Such a long list of crap...

 

Your "help" is yet to materialize. You keep talking about it but Nothing happens. Wanna tell us again that you've stayed on the sidelines because you've "lost trust" in us? Cool.

 

Those of us who you think are a bag o' hot wind are classified (by you alone) as Toxic. Wanna do something about that? Then DO something! Your mouth ain't going to get it done here.

 

I guess in a red-hot minute you're going to be the next 90-day wonder to show us how to have Budweiser, CoCa-Cola and IBM as major sponsors for USPSA events. Nice! Then make it happen and get them to commit.  i swear if you can I'll get om my knees and beg your forgiveness. With VIDEO. 

 

Do a search on this forum for all of the ones who came before you with similar grandiose ideas for sponsorship. Clearly they didn't have your talent. But you do. Make it happen. 

 

 

BTW, it IS a hobby.

[ima45dv8]

38 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Regardless of how many matches you’ve organized, the mentality you’re touting is what has undermined everyone who’s tried to help get the major support for this sport.

 

I know better than to start down a path which will inevitably be undermined by those I’m trying to help.

 

That’s why I’m willing to do whatever I can for Shannon, but am stopping short of helping the organization as a whole.

I don't know.

Should I just outright call you a coward, or not?

 

You sit behind a keyboard and make grand claims of what you COULD do, but that's all you have done here. Do you actually run a match? I mean, do you show up each and every month and make sure the stages are on the ground, and are rules-compliant? Do you take any responsibility for seeing that competitors and RO's (yeah - you better!) are justly compensated? 

 

Maybe I've misjudged you. Let me know. It's easy enough to verify in such a small community. 

[ima45dv8]

I see you prefer to go back and edit previous posts rather than answering direct questions. I've seen little girls do that. 

It's making my decision of whether to call you out as a coward much easier.

 

Man up. Stick to whatever position you want to take, but stop trying to game the discussion. You're up against Pros here... No one will think less of you, even if you're wrong, as long as you hold to what you believe. They might even gain some respect.

Stop trying to weasel your way out from under what you've posted.

 

 

 

So...

You told me you would answer my questions regarding match finances, in today's world, once another matter was cleared up. Smitty did that. 

You're still dodging the question. 

 

 

[Intheshaw1]

For market research and ROI on advertising dollars, you'd be surprised on what marketing companies can track. I know a few agency owners and what they have shown me to prove out ROI to their clients is unbelievable and kinda creepy at the same time in how they track people.

 

Social media ad agencies can go so granular as to target potential customers on a city block and push down ads as people are coming up to your location.

 

So yeah, companies and industries know their ROI and where to put their dollars. So it's up to people to increase the ROI for companies supporting shooting sports. Take the Nascar approach for dealerships with the old 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday' approach.

[Ming the Merciless]

3 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I guess in a red-hot minute you're going to be the next 90-day wonder to show us how to have Budweiser, CoCa-Cola and IBM as major sponsors for USPSA events. Nice! Then make it happen and get them to commit.  i swear if you can I'll get om my knees and beg your forgiveness. With VIDEO. 

 

Did I miss the part where he's going to get IPSC in the Olympics?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Ming the Merciless

[BeerBaron]

I’m not going to go into this too much but your whole argument is built on a faulty premise. That uspsa/shooting can be in some way compared to the video game industry. There are so many reason why that comparison is completely invalid but I’ll start with this:

 

the gun industry is one thing. It may be multi billion dollar industry but understand these facts:

 

shooting sports are a subset of that industry (like hunting is a subset, or self defense etc)

 

within that subset of ‘shooting sports’ we have practical shooting which is probably best described as a niche market

 

within that niche of practical shooting you have uspsa as a niche within the niche

 

within that small niche of uspsa you have pcc

 

If you want to use the electronic gaming industry analogy, uspsa is like a video game league for people playing Mario kart64. And pcc is like comp within that league where people all compete using the princess peach character. 

 

So if you ran a ‘Mario kart64 princess peach championship’ would you expect uber $ prize money for that?

[Whoops!]

8 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I see you prefer to go back and edit previous posts rather than answering direct questions. I've seen little girls do that. 

It's making my decision of whether to call you out as a coward much easier.

 

Man up. Stick to whatever position you want to take, but stop trying to game the discussion. You're up against Pros here... No one will think less of you, even if you're wrong, as long as you hold to what you believe. They might even gain some respect.

Stop trying to weasel your way out from under what you've posted.

 

 

 

So...

You told me you would answer my questions regarding match finances, in today's world, once another matter was cleared up. Smitty did that. 

You're still dodging the question. 

 

 

My position hasn’t changed with any of my edits.  Wording or quotes were changed because it’s hard to add multiple quotes on a phone.

 

Why would I even try to inform anyone who thinks running with live guns and shooting targets at the speed of reaction time is more of a hobby than kicking a ball across a field?

 

7 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

For market research and ROI on advertising dollars, you'd be surprised on what marketing companies can track. I know a few agency owners and what they have shown me to prove out ROI to their clients is unbelievable and kinda creepy at the same time in how they track people.

 

Social media ad agencies can go so granular as to target potential customers on a city block and push down ads as people are coming up to your location.

 

So yeah, companies and industries know their ROI and where to put their dollars. So it's up to people to increase the ROI for companies supporting shooting sports. Take the Nascar approach for dealerships with the old 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday' approach.

 

I’m not surprised at all.  
 

But, the magical direct linkage that so many here are looking for where someone goes into a store and says “I bought this because of the lizard commercial (or USPSA)” doesn’t exist and never will.

The method of linking commercials to products is much more difficult than it would be to link USPSA to massive amounts of income for the industry.  The television industry simply took the time to create the equations necessary to satiate the companies spending money.

 

 

3 hours ago, BeerBaron said:

I’m not going to go into this too much but your whole argument is built on a faulty premise. That uspsa/shooting can be in some way compared to the video game industry. There are so many reason why that comparison is completely invalid but I’ll start with this:

 

the gun industry is one thing. It may be multi billion dollar industry but understand these facts:

 

shooting sports are a subset of that industry (like hunting is a subset, or self defense etc)

 

within that subset of ‘shooting sports’ we have practical shooting which is probably best described as a niche market

 

within that niche of practical shooting you have uspsa as a niche within the niche

 

within that small niche of uspsa you have pcc

 

If you want to use the electronic gaming industry analogy, uspsa is like a video game league for people playing Mario kart64. And pcc is like comp within that league where people all compete using the princess peach character. 

 

So if you ran a ‘Mario kart64 princess peach championship’ would you expect uber $ prize money for that?

Actually, your argument is faulty and there’s a simple explanation.

 

Think of USPSA like a pay to play game.

 

But, instead of charging $5 for coins or an electronic outfit, it ends up charging $2000 for a rifle or $300 for a gear belt.

 

All of a sudden, not that many players still blows your mind, doesn’t it?

 

I was going to explain more, but then decided not to because of how much I don’t trust the people in this thread. (People who didn’t even compete at PCC Nationals, by the way)

Edited June 24, 2020 by Whoops!

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, Whoops! said:

But, I’d never be willing to start putting in that effort when the people organizing and working the matches don’t have respect for what they’re running and refer to it as a “hobby.”

 

We could refer to it as a blazing blue petunia but it would still be a hobby for 99% of those who participate. 

 

 

 

 

[Whoops!]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

We could refer to it as a blazing blue petunia but it would still be a hobby for 99% of those who participate. 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, same with sports.  

But, people who watch sports and are enamored by the people who dedicated their whole life to do the sport as well as possible . . . don’t say those people are playing their hobby.

 

It’s a matter of respect for not just what is being done, but also for the people really doing it.

 

I for one, would like to see people truly excel at this sport.