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Maxamundo

Help design the ultimate practical 2-gun sport

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Hey guys, I've been working on a proposed 2-gun ruleset that I'd hope to see club matches run on a national level. Here's a google doc I've been working on, compiling ideas from myself and a lot of others. It would be cool if you read it, and left some feedback by commenting here.

 

The way the document works, is the most current updates will be at the start. Every new update I do to it, I will put in a different text color. As of right now (June 25th 2020), there's the initial proposal I wrote in black, and today's update in dark blue.

Some quick notes:

  • This is designed to be implemented at a club level nationwide
  • Any USPSA club that allows rifle calibers to be shot on their bays can easily participate
  • Is not designed to replace 3-gun or USPSA, but fit a segment somewhere in the middle, including elements of USPSA handgun and IPSC rifle.
  • Division count is kept at 3, and designed to align as closely as possible with current USPSA Handgun and traditional 3-gun rifle division rules
  • There is already a surprisingly large amount of interest, even from within the USPSA org, to run something like this, and I think now is the perfect time to talk about it and see if it's something we can start around the country!

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/133BVenBo0a3NGWCTOJr5m1_5qGbkEd9Jt2xUNjigK-Q/edit?usp=sharing

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I’d say Production/Factory/duty division: 10 round mags on pistol, no magnified optics, 30 round max rifle mags. If you made the handgun fit the USPSA box, that’d be fine with me. I don’t think the DA/SA thing REALLY needs to be “addressed”.... even in USPSA. 

 

Limited/Tac Ops would stay the same as Limited USPSA+Tac Ops rifle. I don’t think limiting magnification on rifles would do any good—if someone wants to drop $3k on a 1-10 to shoot at 200 yards, knock yourself out. 

 

Open. CO guns belong here. 

 

 

I think it’d be a fun one to shoot; and most everyone could compete in some division or another.

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11 minutes ago, HCH said:

I’d say Production/Factory/duty division: 10 round mags on pistol, no magnified optics, 30 round max rifle mags. If you made the handgun fit the USPSA box, that’d be fine with me. I don’t think the DA/SA thing REALLY needs to be “addressed”.... even in USPSA. 

 

Limited/Tac Ops would stay the same as Limited USPSA+Tac Ops rifle. I don’t think limiting magnification on rifles would do any good—if someone wants to drop $3k on a 1-10 to shoot at 200 yards, knock yourself out. 

 

Open. CO guns belong here. 

 

 

I think it’d be a fun one to shoot; and most everyone could compete in some division or another.


What's your reasoning for not allowing CO guns in Limited Optics?

 

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9 minutes ago, Maxamundo said:


What's your reasoning for not allowing CO guns in Limited Optics?

 

 

Mainly the crossover between the sports as it stands now. Dots on handguns aren’t allowed in Tac ops in any major that I’m aware of. 

 

That would keep the common rules in play. Also, the difference between open rifles and Tac rifles is pretty negligible these days. Most guys that have Open rifles already have some sort of Open pistol.

 

Long story short, I wouldn’t feel any disadvantage shooting a Tac rifle in Open in the type of match you described. However, I would be shopping for a CO gun if they were allowed in Tac/limited tac or whatever. 

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If you’re going to limit the long range to 200 yards you’ll also want indicate a minimum target size or someone will set up 1inch steel targets at 200 yards. 

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36 minutes ago, iamspartacus said:

If you’re going to limit the long range to 200 yards you’ll also want indicate a minimum target size or someone will set up 1inch steel targets at 200 yards. 

 

I agree with this.  4 MOA  steel should be minimum.  I go to 3 gun matches and see people bang away at small targets until they time out or run out of ammo.  IDK why smaller than 4 MOA ever started, what many people shoot are much closer to "service" guns than Precision guns.  And the good guys are still going to win regardless just the average dude will still be able to make some hits.  Also I think 300 yards max would be cool, but that is really far enough, and 200 ain't bad either. 

 

Assuming paper is a reset target, i wouldn't pit a max range on them.  A long time ago I shot a 3 gun match that had a rifle standards stage out to 300 on paper targets that was kinda cool, would rather not have a rule that disallowed that.  That said, i imagine most targets that required resetting of any type would almost never be used past 50 or so because of the set time involved.  

 

Also agree that all dot pistols need to be in open.

 

And the Factory division pistols loaded with factory/grip length mags filled up would be good too IMO.  15 plus would be fine too, but  I have no interest in 10 round pistols

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As one of those "but shotgun" guys who enjoys 2 gun, best of luck on this and I hope it takes off!  Some thoughts:

 

-Hit factor scoring sounds great; I like the increased emphasis on accuracy it would add over 3 gun time plus scoring.

-I really like how it requires both guns be used on every stage so there aren't any pistol only or rifle only stages.

-Letting shooters choose starting gun condition, whether to use sling, which gun to start with, etc. sounds great.  Requiring starting with safety on for slung rifle would be safer.

-The idea of interesting and technical short and medium courses for 2 gun sounds very interesting.  As is often discussed on this forum, the concept of an interesting, technical short course has largely been lost in USPSA and when most think of short courses they equate that with a boring classifier.  Is anything being done to take that into account and encourage more interesting short courses?

-Not sure how I feel about the 200 yard max as I enjoy long range part of multigun.  Is primary reason for this to speed up match?  If so, there might be better ways to do that.  For example, a stage with only one long range target at 500 yard that's a full size IPSC steel will be a faster stage than one with 10 small targets at 200 yards.  4 MOA minimum size sounds good, and maybe something like a 120 second par time on all stages to avoid people spending all day trying to hit long range steel.

-What's the advantage to allowing all the mid-match gun and gear changes?  I think it'd be nice to avoid situations where people feel the need to bring a cart full of gear to a match in order to be competitive. 

 

On divisions, I vote just 2 divisions:

Limited - USPSA Limited pistol rules and tactical/tac optics rifle rules.  140mm pistol mags and either no rifle mag limit or 30rd limit

Open - same as USPSA/3 gun Open

 

And this is coming from a guy who shoots a Production pistol and often a rifle with red dot + 3x magnifier for 2 gun. 

-If minor only, there's no real difference between Production and Limited pistols

-If 200 yard max there's less advantage to higher power scopes

-CO belongs in Open.  Even some of the top Open 3 gun shooters choose to use slide mounted optics

-No one* wants to shoot 2 gun with low cap pistol mags.  10rd limit would mean you need lots of pistol pouches on belt, plus rifle pouches.  (* No one = just about no one 😉)

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4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

-I really like how it requires both guns be used on every stage so there aren't any pistol only or rifle only stages.

 

I missed that in the rules, and personally would be against it.  I would rather have the option the have stages that required 1 or both guns,  not be forced as a match director to have to build stages that used both guns always.  I would be fine with a percentage that had to have both guns though.

 

4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

-Letting shooters choose starting gun condition, whether to use sling, which gun to start with, etc. sounds great.  Requiring starting with safety on for slung rifle would be safer.

 

I don't think you can put the safety on an AR or M1a with the hammer down

 

4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

-

-Not sure how I feel about the 200 yard max as I enjoy long range part of multigun.  Is primary reason for this to speed up match?  If so, there might be better ways to do that.  For example, a stage with only one long range target at 500 yard that's a full size IPSC steel will be a faster stage than one with 10 small targets at 200 yards.  4 MOA minimum size sounds good, and maybe something like a 120 second par time on all stages to avoid people spending all day trying to hit long range steel.

 

While i like my idea o f 300 yards max the best 🙂 , I would rather see 200 max than 500.  Also i don't like par times at all, it is just a crutch for bad stage design.  I understand the need at some 3 gun matches, but would really hate to partimes at match like the OP is discussing

 

4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

-

 

On divisions, I vote just 2 divisions:

Limited - USPSA Limited pistol rules and tactical/tac optics rifle rules.  140mm pistol mags and either no rifle mag limit or 30rd limit

Open - same as USPSA/3 gun Open

 

And this is coming from a guy who shoots a Production pistol and often a rifle with red dot + 3x magnifier for 2 gun. 

-If minor only, there's no real difference between Production and Limited pistols

-If 200 yard max there's less advantage to higher power scopes

-CO belongs in Open.  Even some of the top Open 3 gun shooters choose to use slide mounted optics

-No one* wants to shoot 2 gun with low cap pistol mags.  10rd limit would mean you need lots of pistol pouches on belt, plus rifle pouches.  (* No one = just about no one 😉)

 

Yep

 

 

 

I am not arguing with you Southpaw, just offering some different thoughts 🙂  Your post was lined out good and made put my thinking cap on 👍

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Of all the clubs I shoot USPSA at, only one could accommodate a 200 yard shot.  Special arrangements would have to be made, because it is no where near the 'action bays'.  Another club 'could' accommodate a 100 yard shot, but would be unlikely to do so.  That is the only range they leave open to members for any USPSA or SCSA shoot.

 

Another problem is rifle shooting in bays.  Most clubs keep rifles well separated from pistols and shotguns.  If any of the USPSA clubs near me offered this 2-gun shoot it would have to be pistols and PCCs only.

 

I also like two Divisions; irons and optics.

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I like where you are headed with this. I would shoot the factory division for sure. I’m for the option of 15 round pistols and 30 round rifles with a 1x optic. If you made it flash hiders only I wouldn’t shoot this division. 

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Just a bystander and infrequent competitor but IMHO the largest hinderance to participation in shooting sports isn't expense, ranges, volunteerism, etc. but the overwhelming preponderance of rules and their petty enforcers. Why don't we simply shoot for our personal competitions and if some guy wants to spend $10k on a gun in order to beat somebody with a Glock then let him. 

 

The complexity of the rulebooks makes this poor engineer's head spin. I just want to shoot with friendly people in a safe manner and get better at it. 

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I was gonna post here just to defend the honor of my beloved shotgun, but if there was ever a good shooting sport without a shotgun I'd say you're headed the right direction. 

3 divisions max, try to mirror the most common 3 gun divisions for rifle and USPSA for pistol just because anybody already involved in competition has this stuff already.

Brakes keep the 1"x3", there is just no way to police brake stuff without just having a list of approved models.

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Since a lot of these questions end up getting stuck on what should go in what division, I say only have one open division. A sort of 'run what you got' kind of a thing. Or run an irons division and an optic/dot division and call it good.

 

But it really just depends on if you want people to have fun at a club level or if you want to run majors in the future. If it's just about getting people to participate, I'd follow what Frankly says and just simplify the rules as much as possible and the biggest questions are usually around divisions. If it's about running majors with decent prizes, then you'll need a rule book that only lawyers can accurately interpret.

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8 hours ago, RJH said:

I am not arguing with you Southpaw, just offering some different thoughts 🙂  Your post was lined out good and made put my thinking cap on 👍

 

No worries, I wasn't expecting everyone to agree with me 😀

 

On par times, stages shouldn't be designed so a significant number of shooters time out.  They're just used to prevent someone taking all day trying to hit long range targets because they showed up with a not properly zeroed scope or don't know proper hold, etc.  All our multigun matches here have 120 or 180 par times, depending on the stage.  Not many people time out, it's just to help match flow and prevent someone spending 5 minutes going to battle on a long range target.

 

Yes you can't put safety on with hammer down on most rifles, I never said anything about hammer down 😉.  I suppose absolute safest way would be to say if slinging rifle, at make ready you first have to pull trigger (verifying unloaded), and then engage safety (i.e., rack bolt, then engage safety).  My point with this is at the rare match where a sling is required, I'm always surprised how many people don't know how to use slings and fumble around with them.  Many are just not familiar with using slings so I can easily see someone awkwardly trying to load a slung rifle slip and pull trigger while chambering a round, sending a round over the berm.  Having safety on would prevent that.

 

For those who want an irons only division:  no one* wants to shoot a rifle with just iron sights (* No one = just about no one 😉)

 

Oh I just thought of another great rule - ban spinner targets!  🙂

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As an avid 3 gunner I like the idea. Only thing i don't like is restricting the l8ng range targets to 200yds and this is from someone who shoots Limited in 3 gun. For 200yds the most you'll likely need is a 3x magnifier which won't give much if any differences in rifle configurations between the divisions. 1-6+ won't be necessary, a 1-4x or 3x magnifier will be more than enough for all divisions, especially if a magnifier is allowed in the Practical division.

 

Also, no 10rd mag divisions, nobody wants that. I saw make the Practical division either 140mm mags or grip length mags with no magwell or extension. 

 

 

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Pick a number for mag cap so people aren't constantly effing around with magic basepads and springs or needing to shoot this or that because they can get 40s or drums or whatever for them.  ROs might not be able to count that high during the COF, but other competitors sure can.

 

So... 30rd rifle mag cap.  You can get 30's for nearly everything some crazy might want to shoot, especially if their range only has short distances and they want to Pistol+PCC it with a Tommy gun or whatever for the fun of it.  

 

15-20 rounds for pistols.  People with higher-cap mags can download.

 

Random thought-- how about 2 equipment divisions "Limited" and "Open", and 3 divisions based on how many of your guns qualify?

 

2 "Open" guns = Open

1 "Open", 1 "Limited" (doesn't matter which is which) = Tac

2 "Limited" = Limited

 

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I would add a PCC division for a few reasons:
1) they are very popular, even with folks who do not compete
2) can be used where rifle calibers are restricted based on range rules

Based on the target size and distance limits, I don't see a need for keeping magnified and non magnified rifle optics in different divisions. In fact the non magnified optic may offer a competitive advantage.

PCC
Tactical Rifle
Open

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On 6/26/2020 at 6:24 PM, Southpaw said:

 

Yes you can't put safety on with hammer down on most rifles, I never said anything about hammer down 😉.  I suppose absolute safest way would be to say if slinging rifle, at make ready you first have to pull trigger (verifying unloaded), and then engage safety (i.e., rack bolt, then engage safety).  My point with this is at the rare match where a sling is required, I'm always surprised how many people don't know how to use slings and fumble around with them.  Many are just not familiar with using slings so I can easily see someone awkwardly trying to load a slung rifle slip and pull trigger while chambering a round, sending a round over the berm.  Having safety on would prevent that.

 

if starting slung with mag in empty chamber closed bolt, or mag out empty chamber closed bolt, no need to jerk around trying to put the safety on at make ready.  overkill and frankly more unnecessary manipulation may lead to more errors.

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rather than creating yet another ruleset, maybe consider using what's already out there - uml, mid atlantic multigun, 3gn, us carbine association (defunct but rules are out there).  and of course for the 3 gun rules, shotgun would be n/a'.

 

given all the carry optics hoopla, would be neat to have a tac/carry optics division.  basically the usual tac optics (rifle with variable scope, production/limited handgun with slide mounted dot).

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Posted (edited)

Without reading your document (which is hard going on a phone), here are my initial thoughts as an experienced action long gun rules writer and MD:

 

1) Do not incorporate the Major vs Minor scoring disparity. The concept is outdated, and it greatly complicates the use of hit factor scoring in Multigun. Someone should be able to shoot a stock 9mm Glock 17 and 16” 5.56 AR15 and not be at an automatic disadvantage vs. some crazy competition-specific calibers.
2) Stick to Comstock only scoring like IPSC does. Virginia Count is stupid in handgun - do not contaminate your concept with it.

3) Definitely get away from the USPSA “shoot as seen” dogma. For something you want to be viable at the club level, the current rules as written are too restrictive on the stage designer, requiring too many expensive props and too much setup work. 
4) Do not attempt to align with existing USPSA handgun or Multigun equipment rules. They are a complete basket case, the product of decades of compromise and “must not obsolete a gun” thinking, and are thus irreparably broken. Start with a clean sheet of paper based on the most common kinds of guns out there. Definitely do not create an Open Division that requires huge $$$ to buy a competitive rig.
 

I’d actually make the case for only ONE equipment division, with stage design rules that negate the benefit of magnified optics, bipods etc. (e.g. minimum available target size vs distance for both handgun and rifle). Make the shooter run their gear unchanged throughout the match and they will figure out what works.

 

The outlaw Multigun world is already well versed in running 2-Gun matches. Look at what is most successful there and use that as a basis for your new sport.

Edited by StealthyBlagga

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On 6/26/2020 at 1:28 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I was gonna post here just to defend the honor of my beloved shotgun, but if there was ever a good shooting sport without a shotgun I'd say you're headed the right direction. 

3 divisions max, try to mirror the most common 3 gun divisions for rifle and USPSA for pistol just because anybody already involved in competition has this stuff already.

Brakes keep the 1"x3", there is just no way to police brake stuff without just having a list of approved models.

We shoot a two gun  locally and combined with a local metal match I'd suggest:

 

KISS:

Pistol: Practical, CO, Open. Load to capacity/desire unless COF requires a download.

Rifle: PCC, carbine, battle rifle (yes some shoot FNs, M1s...). Its assumed the PCC and Carbine have opticals.

Starts are holstered, or low ready (loaded with safety on) unless specified in COF.

Just my uneducated $.02

 

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10 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I’d actually make the case for only ONE equipment division, with stage design rules that negate the benefit of magnified optics, bipods etc. (e.g. minimum available target size vs distance for both handgun and rifle). Make the shooter run their gear unchanged throughout the match and they will figure out what works.

I rather like this. 

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