Timer not detecting PCC shots

[Lastcat]

RO on a stage for a PCC Shooter, with a very quite PCC. Got as close as possible, timer high and forward as possible, without interfering. Watching the timer, you see the first 4 shots register, then the next 5 nothing.

 

What should be done?

 

State all Rules that apply. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Lastcat

[HCH]

Well, it depends. 

 

Did the timer pick up the LAST shot?

 

There is no rule stating every split must be accounted for.   If the shooter fired 5 rounds and the gun locked up: reshoot. The RO was not able to determine the correct time. 

 

9.10.1

9.10.2

 

And WTF was the RO watching the timer and not the shooter??

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by HCH

[DKorn]

10 minutes ago, HCH said:

Well, it depends. 

 

Did the timer pick up the LAST shot?

 

There is no rule stating every split must be accounted for.   If the shooter fired 5 rounds and the gun locked up: reshoot. The RO was not able to determine the correct time. 

 

And WTF was the RO watching the timer and not the shooter??

 

Agree with you about the ruling, but I was taught to keep the timer where you can see it in your peripheral vision. It’s enough that you can tell out of the corner of your eye that the numbers are changing as it picks up shots, but still focus on watching the shooter. You can’t read the time, but you can tell if it’s successfully picking up shots. 

[HCH]

I get that, and I’ll glance at the timer during a shooter’s run, but I don’t watch it intently. 

 

Bottom line: if the total time cannot accurately be measured, it’s a reshoot. 

[revoman]

Total time is from the beep to the last shot

[Out of Ammo]

The last shot is the only one that counts. If the timer doesn't pick up the last shot, it's a reshoot.

[DKorn]

55 minutes ago, HCH said:

I get that, and I’ll glance at the timer during a shooter’s run, but I don’t watch it intently. 

 

Bottom line: if the total time cannot accurately be measured, it’s a reshoot. 

Exactly. 
 

Rules references, since the OP asked for them:

9.2.2/9.2.3 state that the time stops on the last shot. 
 

9.10.1 states that if a timing device is faulty (i.e, fails to accurately record the time to last shot for any reason) and an accurate time can’t be determined, then it’s a reshoot. 

[ima45dv8]

Is this from an RO test/recertification?

[revoman]

1 minute ago, DKorn said:

Exactly. 
 

Rules references, since the OP asked for them:

9.2.2/9.2.3 state that the time stops on the last shot. 
 

9.10.1 states that if a timing device is faulty (i.e, fails to accurately record the time to last shot for any reason) and an accurate time can’t be determined, then it’s a reshoot. 

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

[Lastcat]

37 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Is this from an RO test/recertification?

 

No it's not part of the RO Test. It actually happened at a Match yesterday, I was the RO. The shooter was a really big guy too, 400+ lbs. Doing all I can to watch him, while putting the timer as far forward as I could and over his shoulder. I still had a good view of his PCC and finger discipline. Just took a peek for a mil-second and nothing registering. 

[shred]

1 hour ago, revoman said:

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

 

It's been tried at majors.  Didn't go well for the shooter.  As long as the RO is confident it picked up the last shot, the intervening ones don't matter.

 

[ima45dv8]

34 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

No it's not part of the RO Test. It actually happened at a Match yesterday, I was the RO. The shooter was a really big guy too, 400+ lbs. Doing all I can to watch him, while putting the timer as far forward as I could and over his shoulder. I still had a good view of his PCC and finger discipline. Just took a peek for a mil-second and nothing registering. 

Gotcha. Sounds like was his sound barrier. 

As was said, all we really need is the last shot for a valid score. And shots missing in the middle are of no consequence at that point.

[Lastcat]

42 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Gotcha. Sounds like was his sound barrier. 

As was said, all we really need is the last shot for a valid score. And shots missing in the middle are of no consequence at that point.

 

Hahaha...big time. He was wider than one of those Plastic Stage Barrels 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, revoman said:

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

 

Yeah, I don't think so.  First of all, as an RO I have no idea of exactly how many shots you fired and you think should be on the timer.

 

You can ask to see all the splits and I'll hand you the timer so you can scroll through it all you like after I certify the time with the scorekeeper.  But it won't have a bearing on your score.

 

And missing splits most certainly will not be the basis for a reshoot.

Edited June 25, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Nathanb]

Shot timer not shot counter.  This is one way that the amg timer excels. 

[IVC]

9.10.1 - Requires that the timing device operated by the RO can be used to determine "accurate time," reshoot otherwise. The last shot is all that is required to get the accurate time (provided the timer is not otherwise faulty). 

[IVC]

12 hours ago, revoman said:

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

 

11.1.3 prohibits use of "audio, video or photographic evidence." Splits on the timer would be "audio evidence" and you cannot use them in arbitration, so you don't have a case if the RO records the time based off of the last shot. Also, the only way to ask for a reshoot in your scenario would be under 9.10.1, which only states that the time must be accurately determined. 

[IHAVEGAS]

13 hours ago, revoman said:

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

 

If you are shooting a pcc/ammo combination that requires the r.o. to share your underwear to get the shot timed then it is easier to just bump him/her when you do not like your progress on a stage.

 

I have no idea why USPSA doesn't just fix the problem by assigning a minimum power factor of 155 or something. Requiring an r.o. to contort to your gun location is not conducive to allowing the r.o. to do his primary safety job.  I thought the justification for taking away our hard copy rule books was reaction time. 

[DKorn]

13 hours ago, revoman said:

So if I shoot a 8 round stage and the last shot is picked up and I don’t like my time I can ask to see 8 splits and if only 7 show up I get a reshoot. I think from now on I will be asking to see all shots on the timer especially if I have a bad run. In fact 9.10.1 should include RO has to show shooter every split before scoring starts. 

Nope. If I as the RO know that the timer accurately recorded your last shot, then that’s your time. No shots other than the last one are required to be recorded. 

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you are shooting a pcc/ammo combination that requires the r.o. to share your underwear to get the shot timed then it is easier to just bump him/her when you do not like your progress on a stage.

 

I have no idea why USPSA doesn't just fix the problem by assigning a minimum power factor of 155 or something. Requiring an r.o. to contort to your gun location is not conducive to allowing the r.o. to do his primary safety job.  I thought the justification for taking away our hard copy rule books was reaction time. 

 

This 

 

It's getting that last shot. I wonder how often does a quite PCC run  a Stage 10 seconds faster that usual?

 

34 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Nope. If I as the RO know that the timer accurately recorded your last shot, then that’s your time. No shots other than the last one are required to be recorded. 

 

Yes.

[2MoreChains]

Try holding the timer lower, below the shooter’s elbow on the same side as the ejection port, especially with really big people.  Keep the display facing you so your peripheral vision can see the numbers changing.  Most PCCs eject to the right, but I’ve seen a few LH-eject PCCs.  Figure that out during the Make Ready.  

 

I’ve been favoring the new AMG Lab shot timers.  It’s really easy to adjust the timer’s sensitivity with just a few button presses without having to scroll thru a long menu or a screw driver on other timers.  Bump it up when a PCC shooter comes to the line, drop it back down with a pistol shooter to avoid picking up non-shot sounds.  Or have two timers on hand, one set to a higher sensitivity for the PCC’ers, the other for the pistoleers.  I’ve been using the AMG Lab timer for Steel Challenge, and it’s been picking up even the most quiet .22LR rifles.  

 

Another tip, while the competitor is shooting the first part of the stage experiment with how close (or far) you need to be so you can ensure you’re close enough and be in the right spot to pick up the shot at the end. 

 

My first PCC was super quiet.  My PACT timer wasn’t consistently picking up the shot even when clipped to my belt in practice.  Eventually I got tired of reshoots and switched comps.  

[revoman]

To set the record straight I was doing a little pot stirring with my comments  and I do know the final shot is the one that counts and I would never ask to see my splits unless I hit one hell of a reload on my revolver and I just wanted to pat myself on the back.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Lastcat said:

It's getting that last shot. I wonder how often does a quite PCC run  a Stage 10 seconds faster that usual?

 

Last time I worked a level 2 the stage design made it easy to be there for the last shot, but with the timers set at mouse fart you really had to keep an eye out for errant clocking of the open gun shots on the adjacent stage. 

[Lastcat]

56 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Last time I worked a level 2 the stage design made it easy to be there for the last shot, but with the timers set at mouse fart you really had to keep an eye out for errant clocking of the open gun shots on the adjacent stage. 

 

True. We could have upped the sensitivity on the Timer, but the bays on both sides were really close. Said, screw it and just go for it. Last shot recorded, all was complete. I think next time with PCC shooters, ask who has the quietest PCC. Head to the downrange berm and do some Timer testing and bump the sensitivity just for that shooter. Just an idea, if the Range would allow that. 

[motosapiens]

20 hours ago, Lastcat said:

 

True. We could have upped the sensitivity on the Timer, but the bays on both sides were really close. 

 

the amg timers are pretty sensitive to picking up quiet guns while still resisting picking up shots from other bays, in my experience. I've worked a buncha majors, including last years pcc nationals, and one of things you have to be aware of is where you need to be to pick up the last shots, but with the amg timer you don't have to be anywhere near as close.