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Stafford

Last stage DQ

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Last stage of the night. Stage required a stop and re-holster after the first string. I normally let the mag drop free, and insert another. But since this was a short stage, I had enough rounds left to keep shooting. So, I reholstered and shot the second string. When it came time to show clear I racked back and caught the bullet. RO saw the round eject and didn’t ask to see the barrel. At hammer down, boom. 

 

Just like at the end of the first string, I didn’t eject the mag and let it drop free. So, when I racked the slide and ejected, I simply chambered another round which went off at hammer down. Should the RO have asked to see clear, yes. Should I have dropped my mag as usual, yes. Lesson learned.

 

At a recent match, on a similar string, an RO told me I could just take the mag out by hand and put in my pouch instead of letting it hit the ground. I told him that I let it drop free every time so that I don’t screw up. 

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That sucks man, at least no one got hurt.

 

I started shooting at an indoor range and the guys that ran the matches were very strict on safe stuff, as we often had a lot of very new shooters.

 

I developed a habit at "unload, show clear" of showing an empty mag well, and then an empty chamber to the RO. Saved we twice from that same issue you had.

 

We live, learn and move on !

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Habits can be good, and can be bad.     :) 

 

 

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I'm fairly new into USPSA but I have been trying to make a habit to get verbal confirmation from RO when I show clear, it just helps me to not screw up.

I've also ran the timer on the last match and found it unnerving how many people just go through the motions without showing anything.  I can easily see how its easy to skip one step like dropping a magazine.

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At my last match, the RO's were very good about asking to see the chamber after I ejected the round. And one RO told me something very important that I hadn't realized or incorporated into dry fire or live fire practice.

 

I shoot a DA/SA pistol and start hammer down. He told me that I tended to put my finger on the trigger prior to pinching the hammer for a manual adjustment to DA. He told me he had to DQ a GM recently who touched off his sub 2lb trigger because his finger went to the trigger first and set off a round. 

 

He also told me that some RO's would and could disqualify me if my finger touched the trigger prior to grabbing the hammer. Makes sense and something I am now practicing.

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A friend did "unload and go bang" at the end of our second stage of our first major (L2) match.  It was painful for him, and painful to watch. 

 

We learned.  Now many of us (1) cycle the slide several times to be sure only one round comes out (i.e., we've dropped the mag) and some of us also  (2) drop the gun to waist height and look down the magwell to see the ground (i.e., we've dropped the mag).

 

Practice, practice, practice. 

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This has been mentioned before. Every I RO a match, I get some guys that apparently think that their time to unload and show clear counts for score. As the RO, I back them up and insist on seeing a clear chamber. I’ve irritated many but saved several from your fate.

 

The verbal confirmation you should be hearing is: If clear, hammer down, holster.

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I had the exact same DQ happen to me in September of last year at the end of the largest match I had shot at the time. What makes it even better was that I was the last shooter, on the last squad to finish, so it was the final round fired of the match. Luckily the round hit the dirt about 15ft downrange, and everyone was safe, just a bit surprised. Now I rack the pistol no fewer than 3 times, usually more, before dropping the hammer and holstering. Overall a good learning experience, though I was slightly more than mildly pissed at myself for doing something so dumb, as well as trashing the fact that I was beating everyone else in the squad shooting production up until that point.

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as RO i've fingered a magwell or two where i wasn't sure the shooter dropped the mag, and/or looked for a clear magwell (and chamber) when checking the chamber for empty.  i've saved a few from dq that didn't drop their mags.  as a shooter i normally do rack it a few times, just to be sure, but it's more of a total redundancy after visually looking for clear & empty.

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Posted (edited)

That's painful to hear, DQ can wreck a day. 

 

I always follow the RO's commands. Eject mag, rack the slide 3 times and stand their waiting for, "If clear, hammer down and holster". That's when I pull the trigger. I know it's odd, but it's just me, but I rather get the RO involved and let them give the command before I pull the trigger and not rush things. 

 

Another one is during the Make Ready Command. The start position might be at a 45 to 75 degrees to the back berm of the Stage, with toes on X's. I never stand at this start position when making ready, always down range. Anyone else have to ask the Shooter to face down range when Making Ready? I have quite a few times. I know they are thinking of the start position, but the Make Ready position is always facing down range. A PCC guy did this exact thing yesterday when he was making ready, PCC almost broke the 180.

Edited by Lastcat

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DQ’s are never fun but always a learning experience.
 

I’ve caught myself a few times with multiple string stages. On the second string make ready command I go through my usual routine of drawing on the target and then almost pulling the trigger. Makes me cringe just thinking about it now. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 11:15 AM, Stafford said:

He also told me that some RO's would and could disqualify me if my finger touched the trigger prior to grabbing the hammer. Makes sense and something I am now practicing.

 

(speaking for USPSA) - under what rule?

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Posted (edited)

Don’t know. I assume it’s like moving with your finger on the trigger. Or perhaps he was referring to the ND that he had to DQ someone over. 

Edited by Stafford

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51 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

(speaking for USPSA) - under what rule?

This is the rule that covers decocking the firearm:

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

There are no constraints on how to accomplish said decocking. Of course, if one should happen to fire a round, another rule would come into play 😉

 

 

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My reading of 10.5.9 is that I’d arb any DQ for “finger on the trigger before grabbing hammer.” Any bang, sure.

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I’ve caught myself a few times showing clear with a mag still in. Luckily I’ve caught myself and dropped the mag and cleared again. 
I see a lot of people rush thru the commands, I take my time. 

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I heard about a guy who got DQ'd later than that.

After shooting the last stage, he proceeded to pick some brass from the ground. Then he went to the Safety Area, and put a handful of brass on the table.

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Almost that late...

 

An RO shooting on Friday, before the majority of competitors showed up on Saturday. A long day, he was tired and shot like snot on his last stage. He was very disappointed and frustrated with his performance on that stage. Coming back uprange after scoring he picked up his mags along the way, walked over to the safe area to bag his gun, and slung the partially-loaded mags onto the safety table as he did so. 

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I've gotten more vigilant about inspecting my chamber after unloading. Normal process was like many have described, with racking the slide several times to make sure there is no round left in the chamber before going hammer-down.

 

That is, until a friend showed me a Glock that had chipped the extractor. You could rack the slide all day, but it wouldn't extract the chambered round. 

And that's not a Glock-specific failure. I think something along those lines could happen with just about any gun we see at matches (except revolvers).

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, perttime said:

I heard about a guy who got DQ'd later than that.

After shooting the last stage, he proceeded to pick some brass from the ground. Then he went to the Safety Area, and put a handful of brass on the table.


I dont think thats a DQ..
edit.. i stand corrected..

10.5.12
Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases),

 

Edited by scroadkill

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5 hours ago, scroadkill said:


I dont think thats a DQ..
edit.. i stand corrected..

10.5.12
Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases),

 

It pays to read the rules before commenting. Good catch

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Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2020 at 7:18 AM, Stafford said:

Last stage of the night. Stage required a stop and re-holster after the first string. I normally let the mag drop free, and insert another. But since this was a short stage, I had enough rounds left to keep shooting. So, I reholstered and shot the second string. When it came time to show clear I racked back and caught the bullet. RO saw the round eject and didn’t ask to see the barrel. At hammer down, boom. 

 

Just like at the end of the first string, I didn’t eject the mag and let it drop free. So, when I racked the slide and ejected, I simply chambered another round which went off at hammer down. Should the RO have asked to see clear, yes. Should I have dropped my mag as usual, yes. Lesson learned.

 

At a recent match, on a similar string, an RO told me I could just take the mag out by hand and put in my pouch instead of letting it hit the ground. I told him that I let it drop free every time so that I don’t screw up. 

 

1. It's not the RO's responsibility to make sure the gun is clear.  It's your responsibility and yours' alone.  That's why the second command after the CoF is over is "IF CLEAR, hammer down and holster".  It's conditional.  That DQ was 110% on you.  "Show me clear" or "let me see clear" or anything similar are not recognized commands.  Maybe in IDPA.......not here.

 

2. It's up to you to do whatever you want with your magazine when you clear the gun.  However, I've never seen anyone get confused by the fact that they let mags drop free during reloads but stuff them in a pocket or mag pouch at ULSC.  Your gun manipulations should be subconsciously competent during the CoF (meaning manipulations happen correctly without having to think about it), but you don't have that need at ULSC.  In fact it should be the opposite: a consciously deliberate procedure to make your weapon safe.  Human brains can easily handle both approaches and keep them separate.

 

3. When I ULSC I take the magazine out with my left hand and place it in the left front pants pocket.  That way I visually and kinesthetically know the magazine is out of the gun.  Then I rack the slide and let it go, watching the cartridge eject (and I catch it if I can).  Then I pull and hold the slide back so that I can see the chamber is clear and the ground through the magazine well.  Only then do I release the slide to press the trigger and reholster.  I do it that way every single time with every single handgun I use, regardless of where I am or what am I doing.

 

4. Oh yeah, another RO here telling you that getting DQ'd by reaching for the trigger before grabbing the hammer before decocking is BS and will fall at arbitration easy peasy.  I think I've mentioned this to you before but you really need to understand certain parts of the rule book COLD if you want to a) do things correctly and b) call BS when it needs to be called.  You just cannot get by with relying on what people tell you is OK and what's not OK, half of them don't know or make s#!t up.

Edited by SGT_Schultz

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Sarge said:

It pays to read the rules before commenting. Good catch

i was working from memory.. I recalled the dummy rounds.. but the empty cased not so much.  I know ide have a hard time DQing someone for spent brass in the safe area. Now DQing someone for picking up brass in the shooting area while a squad is doing walk throughs I may take great pleasure in.. Now I just need that rule#

 

 

Edited by scroadkill

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2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

1. It's not the RO's responsibility to make sure the gun is clear.  It's your responsibility and yours' alone.  That's why the second command after the CoF is over is "IF CLEAR, hammer down and holster".  It's conditional.  That DQ was 110% on you.  "Show me clear" or "let me see clear" or anything similar are not recognized commands.  Maybe in IDPA.......not here.

 

2. It's up to you to do whatever you want with your magazine when you clear the gun.  However, I've never seen anyone get confused by the fact that they let mags drop free during reloads but stuff them in a pocket or mag pouch at ULSC.  Your gun manipulations should be subconsciously competent during the CoF (meaning manipulations happen correctly without having to think about it), but you don't have that need at ULSC.  In fact it should be the opposite: a consciously deliberate procedure to make your weapon safe.  Human brains can easily handle both approaches and keep them separate.

 

3. When I ULSC I take the magazine out with my left hand and place it in the left front pants pocket.  That way I visually and kinesthetically know the magazine is out of the gun.  Then I rack the slide and let it go, watching the cartridge eject (and I catch it if I can).  Then I pull and hold the slide back so that I can see the chamber is clear and the ground through the magazine well.  Only then do I release the slide to press the trigger and reholster.  I do it that way every single time with every single handgun I use, regardless of where I am or what am I doing.

 

4. Oh yeah, another RO here telling you that getting DQ'd by reaching for the trigger before grabbing the hammer before decocking is BS and will fall at arbitration easy peasy.  I think I've mentioned this to you before but you really need to understand certain parts of the rule book COLD if you want to a) do things correctly and b) call BS when it needs to be called.  You just cannot get by with relying on what people tell you is OK and what's not OK, half of them don't know or make s#!t up.

 

This. All of it. 

 

Especially the part about reading the rule book. 

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1 hour ago, scroadkill said:

i was working from memory.. I recalled the dummy rounds.. but the empty cased not so much.  I know ide have a hard time DQing someone for spent brass in the safe area. Now DQing someone for picking up brass in the shooting area while a squad is doing walk throughs I may take great pleasure in.. Now I just need that rule#

 

 


Remember that the DQ for handling ammunition (including dummy ammunition, brass, etc.) only applies to handling it - just having it in the safe area is OK, although not advisable. So if someone has spent brass in their bag and goes to the safe area, or something like that, they’re still OK. 

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