How many penalties, classifier question? 08-01

[RJH]

We shot the classifier 4 Bill Drill today and had question about penalties come up, I am not sure on the answer so i thought i would ask here.  On the second string, the competitor shot six freestyle on t3, did not reload, and then shot 6 on t4 also freestyle.  So we might have 6 penalties for no reload and 6 penalties for shooting freestyle for a total of 12.  So, is that correct, or would the "double jeopardy" come into play and maybe have 1 penalty for no reload and 6 for shooting freestyle? I "think" he got 12 penalties, but not sure how it ended up as his run was a cluster and a 0 for several reasons, but  I am curious all the same

[ChuckS]

I don't think there is a case of DJ here. The shooter gets 6 (10.2.4) for skipping the reload. They also gets 6 for shooting freestyle vs weak hand. (10.2.2)  Separate actions.

[Schutzenmeister]

George Jones (RMI) answered a similar question VERY well about 4 years ago:

 

 

Quote

 

Posted May 9, 2016

"Double jeopardy" happens when you apply two different penalties for the same act. This is usually when you try to apply both a general rule (such as 10.2.2) and a specific rule for the same act. You can't do both.  [Emphasis added, mine]

[...]

 

 

Tag him for one or the other on those six shots, but not both.  He's already losing 10 points for every shot fired ... Why would you want to hit him for 20 points each?  Let's say he was also foot faulting (with significant advantage) ... Would you then apply 3 penalties per shot fired?  (i.e., 30 penalty points for each 5 point potential shot fired)  Let's get real.

 

Each shot he fired was ONE ACT.  He may incur only ONE procedural penalty for each shot.  (Note:  Scoring penalties for extra shots and/or extra hits are another matter ... See Chapter 9.)  Hit him with the failure to reload penalty as that counts per shot no matter how many targets are available downrange and call it good.

 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

George Jones (RMI) answered a similar question VERY well about 4 years ago:

 

 

 

Tag him for one or the other on those six shots, but not both.  He's already losing 10 points for every shot fired ... Why would you want to hit him for 20 points each?  Let's say he was also foot faulting (with significant advantage) ... Would you then apply 3 penalties per shot fired?  (i.e., 30 penalty points for each 5 point potential shot fired)  Let's get real.

 

Each shot he fired was ONE ACT.  He may incur only ONE procedural penalty for each shot.  (Note:  Scoring penalties for extra shots and/or extra hits are another matter ... See Chapter 9.)  Hit him with the failure to reload penalty as that counts per shot no matter how many targets are available downrange and call it good.

 

 

I read that and that was part of the reason i thought that 12 penalties were too much and thought 7 or even 6 would be a more correct amount.  Of course i read that after the match so it didn't matter at the match, as i was just going off memory there.  However, I like to range lawyer a little here and there and was hoping to get a definitive answer.  Also, I was neither the shooter or the RO in this instance, just a peanut gallery range lawyer who was hoping to get the shooters fine reduced, haha

[NickBlasta]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

George Jones (RMI) answered a similar question VERY well about 4 years ago:

 

 

 

Tag him for one or the other on those six shots, but not both.  He's already losing 10 points for every shot fired ... Why would you want to hit him for 20 points each?  Let's say he was also foot faulting (with significant advantage) ... Would you then apply 3 penalties per shot fired?  (i.e., 30 penalty points for each 5 point potential shot fired)  Let's get real.

 

Each shot he fired was ONE ACT.  He may incur only ONE procedural penalty for each shot.  (Note:  Scoring penalties for extra shots and/or extra hits are another matter ... See Chapter 9.)  Hit him with the failure to reload penalty as that counts per shot no matter how many targets are available downrange and call it good.

 

 

Said rule only applies for the referenced reason, trying to give general procedural when specific ones should be used. In this case two specific penalties are being given. There is nothing in the rulebook that says two (or more) specific procedurals can't be given for one shot. The correct number of procedurals is 12.

[IVC]

10.2.3 addresses multiple penalties. The maximum number of procedural penalties is the number of shots (after the reload), which is 6. 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Tag him for one or the other on those six shots, but not both.  He's already losing 10 points for every shot fired ... Why would you want to hit him for 20 points each?  Let's say he was also foot faulting (with significant advantage) ... Would you then apply 3 penalties per shot fired?  (i.e., 30 penalty points for each 5 point potential shot fired)  Let's get real.

 

The sentiment is right, but you can't make up rules based on how you feel - it's much more important to enforce uniform rule application across all sanctioned competitions. In this case, there is a rule governing the application of multiple procedural penalties. 

[ChuckS]

5 minutes ago, IVC said:

10.2.3 addresses multiple penalties. The maximum number of procedural penalties is the number of shots (after the reload), which is 6. 

10.2.3 does not apply to 10.2.4.

[NickBlasta]

39 minutes ago, IVC said:

10.2.3 addresses multiple penalties. The maximum number of procedural penalties is the number of shots (after the reload), which is 6. 

 

12 scoring hits are available. 12 penalties can be assessed.

[IVC]

51 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

10.2.3 does not apply to 10.2.4.

To the extent 10.2.4 is not "above" as stated in 10.2.3, I would agree. But I wouldn't assign too strict a meaning to the word "above" as we are talking about numbered rules that are explicitly referenced when the intent is to make an exception - 10.2.3 could have explicitly listed 10.2.1 and 10.2.2. as the only rules being limited. The way I read the "above" is that is applies to the section 10 in general. 

 

Otherwise, we can argue that 10.2.2 can be used to penalize failure to reload, then apply 10.2.3. I think it would be silly to try to play this game, though... 

 

[IVC]

28 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

12 scoring hits are available. 12 penalties can be assessed.

That's an interesting point - I don't think it is because the procedurals start accumulating after the failure to reload, but 10.2.3 is not clear about what it means by "the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor." The example in the rest of the rules clearly shows that the idea is to accumulate after the fault happens, not before. 

 

My reading is that 10.2.3 tells us that procedurals accumulate up to the number of available scoring hits and then they stop. On a paper target with two available hits, you can get up to -20 in penalties based on the technicalities. Then, you accumulate extra shots/hits/no-shoots and other "shooting penalties" for each occurrence independently. 

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

To the extent 10.2.4 is not "above" as stated in 10.2.3, I would agree. But I wouldn't assign too strict a meaning to the word "above" as we are talking about numbered rules that are explicitly referenced when the intent is to make an exception - 10.2.3 could have explicitly listed 10.2.1 and 10.2.2. as the only rules being limited. The way I read the "above" is that is applies to the section 10 in general. 

 

Otherwise, we can argue that 10.2.2 can be used to penalize failure to reload, then apply 10.2.3. I think it would be silly to try to play this game, though... 

 

Pretty clear:

 

10.2.3 Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots fired.

 

10.2.4 is not "above".

 

This is the language we have at this time. Based on that, the poor guy won a 12 pack.