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CO and Magnets: 2020 Edition


HCH
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I shot a level 2 this weekend in Limited, but we had all divisions in our squad. One of our shooters was in CO and was loading his pistol off of a magnet in the middle of his back after “Make Ready”. After he shot a stage like this I politely told him that the magnet was not allowed during a COF, and he argued that Max Michel used the same thing in CO, and that Troy had written something saying that you COULD use a magnet to load and unload from, but you couldn’t use the magnet between the start signal and last shot fired. 

 

I  try to stay up to date on rules, and I couldn’t find anything supporting his claims. Did I miss something?

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I believe you are thinking of Appendix D-7.20 which has the same language about magnets for SS, Production, and CO. He is right, like other prohibitions, it's only in effect during the course of fire. Different example, before the start signal, a shooter can pull a mag from his pocket to make ready, if he/she did that during the course of fire it would be a bump to open, same thing with a magnetic magazine holder. As long as it's not during the course of fire, it's legal with no penalty.

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19 minutes ago, Bkreutz said:

I believe you are thinking of Appendix D-7.20 which has the same language about magnets for SS, Production, and CO. He is right, like other prohibitions, it's only in effect during the course of fire. Different example, before the start signal, a shooter can pull a mag from his pocket to make ready, if he/she did that during the course of fire it would be a bump to open, same thing with a magnetic magazine holder. As long as it's not during the course of fire, it's legal with no penalty.

 

And the COF begins at Make Ready..... so he should have been bumped to Open. 

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"A magnet can be on your belt for Production, Carry Optics, or Single Stack divisions, but it must be in the correct position, behind the point of the hip. If it’s on the front of the belt, during a course of fire, it’s a violation of division rules and a bump to Open.

Second, a magazine may be retained on the magnet, but not after Make Ready, and not before Range Is Clear. Where the other range commands come into play in your scenario makes no sense. Taking a magazine from a magnet, or having a magazine on a magnet at Make Ready is a bump to Open. Same thing applies when clearing the gun–you may not go to the magnet with a magazine until after Range is Clear."

 

 

From NROI on a thread about this from 2019

 
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Just curious, when exactly would you bump them to open? Before or after they shot the stage? Theoretically, as soon as you issued the make ready command, and there was a mag on the magnet, they are in open. Would they then have an opportunity to adjust their gear positioning and other equipment to shoot that particular stage?

Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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8 hours ago, HCH said:

 

And the COF begins at Make Ready..... so he should have been bumped to Open. 


I’ve always thought this was the dumbest interpretation of a rule. (See Troy’s response posted by @RJH above, about being bumped to open if you have a mag on a magnet when “Make Ready” is called.)

 

Who cares if a production shooter has a mag tucked behind the belt buckle in Open/Limited location, in their teeth, or on a magnet on their belt at make ready? It has no effect on their score.

 

As long as it’s used only for your starting mag, and not during the stage 
 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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25 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:


I’ve always thought this was the dumbest interpretation of a rule. (See Troy’s response posted by @RJH above, about being bumped to open if you have a mag on a magnet when “Make Ready” is called.)

 

Who cares if a production shooter has a mag tucked behind the belt buckle in Open/Limited location, in their teeth, or on a magnet on their belt at make ready? It has no effect on their score.

 

As long as it’s used only for your starting mag, and not during the stage 
 

 

I agree, but I didn’t write the rulebook. 

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1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:


I’ve always thought this was the dumbest interpretation of a rule. (See Troy’s response posted by @RJH above, about being bumped to open if you have a mag on a magnet when “Make Ready” is called.)

 

Who cares if a production shooter has a mag tucked behind the belt buckle in Open/Limited location, in their teeth, or on a magnet on their belt at make ready? It has no effect on their score.

 

As long as it’s used only for your starting mag, and not during the stage 
 

Agreed. 6.2.5.1 needs to be revised to say “during the course of fire at or after the start signal“ where it currently says “during the course of fire”. 

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38 minutes ago, shred said:

If only we had a NROI website where they could post things like this

 

https://nroi.org/rules-qa/magnet-use-in-co-prod-ss/#more-255

 

 

You might want to read that. The below quote makes a magnet (used specifically to retain the starting mag) completey pointless for Production and CO.
 

“Having a magazine on a magnet at Make Ready is a bump to Open”

 

 

 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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Why even carry a magnet if you're shooting production anyway?  Most production shooters carry between 5-6 magazines anyway.  A magnet doesn't take up any less room on your belt than a mag holder.  Carry Optics might benefit from a magnet since you're only carrying 2-3 mags.  I don't understand all the fuss anyway.  personally, I don't feel a magnet is that beneficial in the small of your back.

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This is one of the dumbest ways to end up in Open.......

 

If you're shooting CO it's absolutely idiotic.  Either add one more mag pouch or load the first mag out of your front pocket.

 

My belt still has five mag pouches from when I used to shoot Production.  Now that I shoot CO, the barney mag goes in the fourth (going CCW from the front) pouch, the start mag (22 rounds) goes in the 3rd pouch, the "oh s#!t" mag (an 18 rounder) goes in the 2nd pouch, and the stage reload (another 22 rounder) goes in the 1st pouch.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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  • 3 months later...

This came up a couple times this weekend and I never really heard any issues come up before...

My question is, if all of the equipment rules apply between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", Why would loading from (during make ready) a front pocket or stowing a magazine in a front pocket when unloading in any of these divisions not also be a bump to Open?

Edited by CFarkas
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9 hours ago, CFarkas said:

This came up a couple times this weekend and I never really heard any issues come up before...

My question is, if all of the equipment rules apply between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", Why would loading from (during make ready) a front pocket or stowing a magazine in a front pocket when unloading in any of these divisions not also be a bump to Open?


because that is specifically and explicitly allowed in the rules therefore that is part of the equipment rules that apply during the COF

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5.2.4.1
Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.  (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).
 

Ok, so from what I see Rule 5.2.4.1 came about as a clarification back in 2011 because of the issue with loading and unloading using the front pocket.  If anything, I don't understand why it was only applied to "apparel pockets".  If I decide to walk up to the line with a magazine in my mouth, this rule doesn't apply and I'm bumped to open.  I just don't understand why any of this should have ever mattered when it has no scoring or safety implications...

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1 hour ago, CFarkas said:
5.2.4.1
Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.  (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).
 

Ok, so from what I see Rule 5.2.4.1 came about as a clarification back in 2011 because of the issue with loading and unloading using the front pocket.  If anything, I don't understand why it was only applied to "apparel pockets".  If I decide to walk up to the line with a magazine in my mouth, this rule doesn't apply and I'm bumped to open.  I just don't understand why any of this should have ever mattered when it has no scoring or safety implications...

 

I have found that it's much more productive to not spend any time worrying, arguing, or discussing things of no consequence.

 

Take the magnet off your belt, or leave it there but don't use it, and move on.

 

 

On 6/23/2020 at 4:57 AM, stick said:

 Carry Optics might benefit from a magnet since you're only carrying 2-3 mags. .

Carry Optics shooters can also benefit from one or two more legal magpouches for barney mags or for storing the magazine from ULSC and not even have to worry about this issue at all.

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2 hours ago, CFarkas said:

If I decide to walk up to the line with a magazine in my mouth, this rule doesn't apply and I'm bumped to open.

 

There's no rule against that. The restriction is on the placement of magazine pouches. You can walk up to the start position juggling magazines at the make ready, if you want. As long as you don't put them on a magnet or a magazine retention device forward of the pelvic crest, you're fine.

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On 6/23/2020 at 2:57 AM, stick said:

 Carry Optics might benefit from a magnet since you're only carrying 2-3 mags.  I don't understand all the fuss anyway.  personally, I don't feel a magnet is that beneficial in the small of your back.

carry optics would also benefit from frame-mounted optics, and compensators, and 170mm magazines.... but rules....

personally, i think it's insane to have a magnet on your belt in a division that doesn't allow you to use it whenever you want. It's just asking for trouble. But I don't use one in limited either, even tho it costs me a few tenths of a second every third match.

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1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

There's no rule against that. The restriction is on the placement of magazine pouches. You can walk up to the start position juggling magazines at the make ready, if you want. As long as you don't put them on a magnet or a magazine retention device forward of the pelvic crest, you're fine.

Yeah, I believe 5.2.4.2 restrictions against magazines in the mouth for WSB's that require magazines somewhere other than the belt would only apply during the COF, and not when walking up to the line.

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17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Yeah, I believe 5.2.4.2 restrictions against magazines in the mouth for WSB's that require magazines somewhere other than the belt would only apply during the COF, and not when walking up to the line.

That doesn't only apply to that type of stage (even though it's hopefully the only time it would occur).  If there is a magazine in your mouth after the make ready command, you are now in the COF and there is no rule that I see currently allowing that.

 

I'm really just trying to make the point that dictating something this trivial is pointless and a simple change to the wording of a rule could end so many unnecessary arguments...

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