WHAT CAUSED THIS?! Blew Up My X5 Legion...

[ELK-K]

Solsand, I just want to give you credit for the outstanding thread.  Lots of good discussion and information for everyone to learn from.  But, most importantly, I appreciate your conclusion to the thread.  There aren't too many people in this alpha community that would own a screw up like that even though EVERY ONE of us have made mistakes in our reloading over the years.  Thanks!

[Solsand]

I appreciate the kind words and sentiment. As a new reloader, I knew and understood my limitations from the get go. I sought guidance and "training" from fellow shooters at my club and studied and researched for months before jumping in and STILL made a catastrophic error. I have been overwhelmed by the positive and constructive support from the Benos "family" and I know that no matter how long a shooter has been reloading there is always something to be learned. 

[12glocks]

I think this is a good thread. About 15 years ago, I tried a Lee Powder measure on a Dillon 550, and for whatever reason (my error), I had a couple of squibs. My brother-in-law fired one and then followed it with another shot in my Glock 26. It bulged the barrel, which I replaced, and the gun is still in service. I got a lot pickier after that, and I spring for the powder check dies now. Two 650's now constitute my primary reloading tools, and I do think auto-indexing is safer. If my powder check die alarms, I check the case, always. This has happened twice. One time a 9mm case had mud caked in the bottom, and the other, there was a little piece of plastic stuck in the case. I also used to be more cavalier about where I sourced 223 brass. I used to pick up more at matches, but after a case head separation, I mostly use once fired LC brass for my match rounds. I tumble brass for hours to hopefully loosen any mud or foreign objects and so on. I have seen some guns blow up in person, where the mag shoots out, the gun may or may not be ruined, and the shooter is lightly injured in the hands. It's just going to happen from time to time if you are around shooting enough. You have some experience with this earlier on, and I think it will make you a better reloader. Error tends to be the best teacher.

 

[Solsand]

@12glocks I've since purchased an RCBS lockout die and I'm going to roll with that indefinitely. Unfortunately, "error tends...teacher" is usually true. No chance for complacency now early on, and I will hopefully remind myself everyday what can and does happen...

[Hooked]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:21 AM, Solsand said:

@Grandmastah Apologies, poor choice of words. I give it one full "press" and then toss/flip them around in the plastic container with the lid on. It does say that it "will not contaminate powder or primers." 

I buy those large ziplock bags from the dollar store.  Give a few liberal squirts of One Shot along the inside walls and bottom of the bag and then fill it with brass. 

 

Seal up up the bag and toss the brass around for a minute or two. Can usually get about 600 - 800 cases in a bag. No lube inside the cases. 

[Solsand]

@Hooked thanks for the reply. That sounds like a good plan, definitely going to do it differently than I have been. Getting too much inside the cases the way I've been doing it and it's causing my powder to clump and stick to the inside walls of the case. Since there's not much TG in there to begin with, I think this might be causing unburnt powder to blow out onto my arms??? At least I'm guessing that's what those "flakes" are I'm getting on my arms while shooting. Never had that happen in all my years while shooting factory ammo...

Edited July 11, 2020 by Solsand
incomplete reply

[njl]

Believe it or not, I read all of your original message, but have only read a few pages of the replies.  You got some bad advice.  Really bad advice.

I started reloading about 12 years ago, and like you, did a lot of research before ordering the press and supplies.  I too, was going to start with 9mm, but had plans to load a number of other pistol and rifle calibers, and I love shooting, so I bought a "better" press to start with (Dillon RL550B, bought new).  After that, powder was, IMO, the most important decision.  I started out with Universal Clays, primarily because I read it was low density, and also because I believed it would work well for both 9mm and .45acp.  It actually didn't work so well for the reduced recoil .45acp I wanted, but that's a different story.  In 9mm, it's great because with most bullet weights, you simply can't double-charge a case without being painfully obvious or spilling powder on the shell plate.

A high density/fast powder like Titegroup, paired with heavy bullets, and a newbie reloader was a recipe for the disaster you ended up with.  The way that case was torn apart, I have no doubt you double-charged it.  As someone else said, the more you stop and break routine on a progressive press, the more chances you introduce to screw things up.

Another reason Titegroup was the wrong powder, is it burns really hot.  I'm aware of a number of instances of people having leading issues with coated bullets loaded with Titegroup...the theory being, it burns so hot, it burns the coating off the bullets.

You'd have been much better off with a low density powder, regardless of burn rate.  i.e. Universal Clays (medium) and Red Dot/Promo (fast) both work fine for 9mm, and I use both.  Promo has the advantage to also working well in other lower pressure pistol cartridges where Universal doesn't work so well.

I had no intention of ever using Titegroup given the things I'd read about it, but did eventually buy 2lbs some years ago during a prior components shortage when there was literally nothing else available and I needed a faster powder than Universal.

[Solsand]

16 hours ago, njl said:

Believe it or not, I read all of your original message, but have only read a few pages of the replies.  You got some bad advice.  Really bad advice.

I started reloading about 12 years ago, and like you, did a lot of research before ordering the press and supplies.  I too, was going to start with 9mm, but had plans to load a number of other pistol and rifle calibers, and I love shooting, so I bought a "better" press to start with (Dillon RL550B, bought new).  After that, powder was, IMO, the most important decision.  I started out with Universal Clays, primarily because I read it was low density, and also because I believed it would work well for both 9mm and .45acp.  It actually didn't work so well for the reduced recoil .45acp I wanted, but that's a different story.  In 9mm, it's great because with most bullet weights, you simply can't double-charge a case without being painfully obvious or spilling powder on the shell plate.

A high density/fast powder like Titegroup, paired with heavy bullets, and a newbie reloader was a recipe for the disaster you ended up with.  The way that case was torn apart, I have no doubt you double-charged it.  As someone else said, the more you stop and break routine on a progressive press, the more chances you introduce to screw things up.

Another reason Titegroup was the wrong powder, is it burns really hot.  I'm aware of a number of instances of people having leading issues with coated bullets loaded with Titegroup...the theory being, it burns so hot, it burns the coating off the bullets.

You'd have been much better off with a low density powder, regardless of burn rate.  i.e. Universal Clays (medium) and Red Dot/Promo (fast) both work fine for 9mm, and I use both.  Promo has the advantage to also working well in other lower pressure pistol cartridges where Universal doesn't work so well.

I had no intention of ever using Titegroup given the things I'd read about it, but did eventually buy 2lbs some years ago during a prior components shortage when there was literally nothing else available and I needed a faster powder than Universal.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read my original post. In hindsight I did get some questionable advice regarding TG, mainly because most of my fellow shooters who I have been shooting matches with for awhile had more faith in me based on maybe some other aspects of shooting. In any case I agree, TG is not a great powder for a newbie because you could damn near triple charge it and it wouldn't overflow. Granted, you'd really have to be paying zero attention to miss all the "spilling" which should automatically disqualify anyone from reloading. I know now that all the stopping/checking/replacing kept the press from doing what it's supposed to do and not trusting the equipment and the process was the real issue. Not the TG per se. A lot of folks have recommended powder "cop" type dies, which definitely seem to make the process more idiot proof, but I'm just going to let the press auto index and pay closer attention to every case before and after powder drop. But the biggest change I've made is switching to Sprort Pistol for now. Better case fill and a double-charge is much more obvious. Bottom line, a ton of great advice since my OP and I am much more aware of what to look out for. I learned a lot, the hard way.

 

FYI, 3.5gr of SP under 147gn coated seems really good right now out of both my X5 Legions...

[ddc]

3 hours ago, Solsand said:

FYI, 3.5gr of SP under 147gn coated seems really good right now out of both my X5 Legions...

 

That is right in the ballpark. Should work fine.

Might be able to go down a tad bit and still make minor PF with a margin.

Depends upon what your chrono is telling you.

 

[Batmo]

  19 hours ago, Solsand said:

FYI, 3.5gr of SP under 147gn coated seems really good right now out of both my X5 Legions...

 

 

3.1 grains of Sport Pistol with a 147 grain coated RN bullet at 1.135 OAL give me a Power Factor of about 130 with both my XDM 5.25 and a Custom 1911.  Very accurate in both.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Batmo

[njl]

 
FYI, 3.5gr of SP under 147gn coated seems really good right now out of both my X5 Legions...

Did you work up to that or get the load from one of your buddies? That’s right on the edge of max / getting into +p territory according to Alliant’s published data.
A friend gave me a bit of Sport Pistol to try. The only 147 I tested was Precision (coated, but not the more common hi-tek). I did a bunch of googling in advance and only tried one charge. 3.2gr gave me 133pf from my G34 and 125pf from my G26.

[ddc]

17 hours ago, njl said:

 

Did you work up to that or get the load from one of your buddies? That’s right on the edge of max / getting into +p territory according to Alliant’s published data.
A friend gave me a bit of Sport Pistol to try. The only 147 I tested was Precision (coated, but not the more common hi-tek). I did a bunch of googling in advance and only tried one charge. 3.2gr gave me 133pf from my G34 and 125pf from my G26.

 

 

I was wondering about Alliant's data. They list 3.5 as the load for two 147 jacketed bullets and 4.1 for another, Speer 147 TMJ,  which would imply that 3.5 for a coated load should be ok.

But then they list 3.5 for a 145 coated load also.

I agree that 3.5 is overkill for minor PF with a coated bullet.

[venatic]

No worries about Hornady One Shot causing issues with primers or powder.

i did an experiment a couple years ago with 300 Win Mag by filling the primed cases with One Shot dumping it out then loading. I even took it further by spraying the powder down with One Shot on 6 rounds and then loading it .

Kept 3 of those for a few months and when I fired them no change at all.

[Solsand]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:16 PM, njl said:

 

Did you work up to that or get the load from one of your buddies? That’s right on the edge of max / getting into +p territory according to Alliant’s published data.
A friend gave me a bit of Sport Pistol to try. The only 147 I tested was Precision (coated, but not the more common hi-tek). I did a bunch of googling in advance and only tried one charge. 3.2gr gave me 133pf from my G34 and 125pf from my G26.

 

Both, but when we finally Chrono’d before Saturday morning’s match it averaged out to like 137PF. So I shot my 3.0gr of TG under 147gr Blues for the match and a box of 147gr Syntech. I believe @ddc and @Batmo are on the money with their SP loads. 
Man, this is just me but I love the way the 147gr Syntech shoots and feels! If I could figure out how to reproduce that load that would be awesome but I haven’t found any info on what powder they use. 

[Solsand]

11 hours ago, venatic said:

No worries about Hornady One Shot causing issues with primers or powder.

i did an experiment a couple years ago with 300 Win Mag by filling the primed cases with One Shot dumping it out then loading. I even took it further by spraying the powder down with One Shot on 6 rounds and then loading it .

Kept 3 of those for a few months and when I fired them no change at all.

Thanks very much, that’s great info and good to know.

[ck1]

1 hour ago, Solsand said:

Man, this is just me but I love the way the 147gr Syntech shoots and feels! If I could figure out how to reproduce that load that would be awesome but I haven’t found any info on what powder they use. 

 

I read on a thread I found on here that a few guys were saying the powder used in the Syntech rounds is bulk Alliant Sport Pistol.

I'm new to reloading myself too, and coming from shooting a bunch of the Syntech "Action Pistol" 150gr stuff over the past year, I can attest that the load I'm using: Blue 135gr .356 TC's + 3.5gr Sport Pistol feels nearly identical when shot back to back with it (except my load's groups are half the size out of my gun as compared to the Syntech, which is a lucky/awesome side-effect). Supposedly Sport Pistol is just a recipe that's trying to duplicate the more expensive and elusive Vihtavuori N320, and plays nice-nice with coated bullets.

 

Again as a new reloader, I've been following the thread... and I applaud and appreciate your honesty after catching the double-charges. We all learn plenty of things the hard way, and the gun can be replaced/fixed, glad you weren't injured.

 

I'll say this though (again as a new reloader), I was worried it was a double-charge from the moment I read your first post and read that you'd decided to induce a bunch of extra manually-done "human" operations (like taking the cases off the press to measure the powder every single time)... I'm a pretty OCD guy when it comes to equipment and such, but there's no way I'd trust myself with even a manually-indexed press right now because there's too much "manual/human" involved, especially if trying to load in any kind of volume; life is just full of too many distractions IMHO. For me, I tend to look at it as more than half of the safety margin for me is built in to the press auto-indexing and making sure I have to almost do something on purpose in order to double-charge a case... I'm sure your head will be on straight from now on considering what happened, but at the same time you sound like you were pretty squared away and it still happened, so hope the powder cop ends up working for you, but maybe just try to trust your process more without adding any more "human" steps (that can get messed up) than needed...?

Edited July 20, 2020 by ck1
was thinking the press was a manual-index, but reread and it was the extra steps that caught my eye

[Solsand]

9 hours ago, ck1 said:

 

I read on a thread I found on here that a few guys were saying the powder used in the Syntech rounds is bulk Alliant Sport Pistol.

I'm new to reloading myself too, and coming from shooting a bunch of the Syntech "Action Pistol" 150gr stuff over the past year, I can attest that the load I'm using: Blue 135gr .356 TC's + 3.5gr Sport Pistol feels nearly identical when shot back to back with it (except my load's groups are half the size out of my gun as compared to the Syntech, which is a lucky/awesome side-effect).

 

I'll say this though (again as a new reloader), I was worried it was a double-charge from the moment I read your first post and read that you'd decided to induce a bunch of extra manually-done "human" operations (like taking the cases off the press to measure the powder every single time)… 

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond regarding what powder is being used in the Syntech 150gr. I'm going to roll with the Sport Pistol for a while. In addition to a couple thousand 147gr Blues, I also bought some 147gr FN SNS and some 147gr FN Precision (small company out in east Texas that always, even now, has stock) and will experiment between those to see if there are any accuracy differences.

 

As to my original issue, no doubt that all the extra manual steps were the direct cause of my KABOOM. Finding two more double-charges in that original batch (after my bullet-pulling party) reinforces that position. FWIW, the Lee Pro 4000 allows for manual indexing by simply removing the center indexing rod. Not sure why that's a plus (maybe for rifle reloading?) but I now know it was a mistake for a newbie to not just let the press auto-index as designed. I over-OCD'd the process and, as someone mentioned early on, didn't trust the process or my equipment. Lesson learned for sure...

[Chutist]

On 7/20/2020 at 9:26 AM, Solsand said:

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond regarding what powder is being used in the Syntech 150gr. I'm going to roll with the Sport Pistol for a while. In addition to a couple thousand 147gr Blues, I also bought some 147gr FN SNS and some 147gr FN Precision (small company out in east Texas that always, even now, has stock) and will experiment between those to see if there are any accuracy differences.

 

As to my original issue, no doubt that all the extra manual steps were the direct cause of my KABOOM. Finding two more double-charges in that original batch (after my bullet-pulling party) reinforces that position. FWIW, the Lee Pro 4000 allows for manual indexing by simply removing the center indexing rod. Not sure why that's a plus (maybe for rifle reloading?) but I now know it was a mistake for a newbie to not just let the press auto-index as designed. I over-OCD'd the process and, as someone mentioned early on, didn't trust the process or my equipment. Lesson learned for sure...

Sounds like you figured it out... I did it 20 years ago.  Same thing, getting out of sequence pulling loads checking and rechecking. FWIW - I've gone to Dillon equipment with auto indexing... 650 and 1050.  If you're going to stay in the sport, I'll tell you what I'd tell any friend: Save yourself a lot of trouble and buy a Dillon.  There is a reason they dominate the market.

[AzShooter]

Auto Indexing is your friend.  I feel you pain, hopefully your gun's manufacturer was able to fix or give you a discount on a replacement pistol.

 

I blew up my 929 loading on a 550.  I think the 550 is a great press and I've loaded many thousands of rounds with no problems but one was enough. I sold the press to a friend, warned him that he needed to reload in a room all by  himself with no distractions and to take his time.  I also had a mirror attached so that I could see the amount of powder in the case.  I was distracted.  

 

I went out and bought a 650 with case and bullet feeder.  My reloading was carefree until I had to give up reloading.

 

Unfortunately, my friend blew up his gun shortly after setting up the press.  You guessed it, he was watching t.v. and not paying attention to what he was doing.  I told him to do what I did and send the gun back to the factory so that they could either fix or replace it at a good price.  He still refuses to follow my suggestion.

 

When mine was back at S&W I called to see who was working on it, what was wrong, was it my fault and what could be done to get my 929 back. Smith offered to sell me a new one at a very good reduced price, so I bought it and was totally satisfied.

 

 

[Solsand]

I forgot to attach referenced quote...

Edited October 13, 2020 by Solsand
Forgot to add quote

[Solsand]

4 hours ago, Chutist said:

Sounds like you figured it out... I did it 20 years ago.  Same thing, getting out of sequence pulling loads checking and rechecking. FWIW - I've gone to Dillon equipment with auto indexing... 650 and 1050.  If you're going to stay in the sport, I'll tell you what I'd tell any friend: Save yourself a lot of trouble and buy a Dillon.  There is a reason they dominate the market.

I hear what you’re saying, and many of my fellow club shooters use Dillon, but why is it better? I bought the Pro 4000 because at the time it was all I could find. But now after several thousand rounds I can’t see any good reason to change. It makes a round every time I pull the handle just like a Dillon. A lot of my buddies are using Lee dies on their Dillon presses. The powder measure is incredibly accurate and consistent. It’s solid and well built and just works. So, what trouble would I be saving? No allegiance to Lee in particular and definitely not a “money thing”, I just haven’t seen my buddies’ 650 or 1050 do anything different or better or faster, even by their own admission... ??

[Chutist]

Maybe Lee got better?  Mine worked fine...except when it broke.    Then it was $10 and two weeks down.  Stuff would break on the 550 from time to time.  Except with Dillon, I'd call and have the part in the mail in a couple of days - no charge.  I guess that kind of treatment has made me advocate for them.   If your Lee is working out, cool.

 

 

[Solsand]

1 hour ago, Chutist said:

Maybe Lee got better?  Mine worked fine...except when it broke.    Then it was $10 and two weeks down.  Stuff would break on the 550 from time to time.  Except with Dillon, I'd call and have the part in the mail in a couple of days - no charge.  I guess that kind of treatment has made me advocate for them.   If your Lee is working out, cool.

 

 

Thanks very much for the reply. Truth is I've only loaded about 3900 rounds with it so I can't speak to its long-term dependability. Time will obviously tell. I was actually set to by a 750 but they were out of stock with long lead times back in April.

 

I had several expert tutorials and knew everything about it thanks to one of my friends at my club. The Lee Pro had not been out long and Midway got a shipment so I jumped. It was intended to be a stop gap, but as I mentioned I see no need to change at the present. We'll see....

[macbolan]

About 28 years ago I had just shot the 1992 Steel Challenge and was working up a light load for my wife's S&W 65 .38 special.  I was shooting a 686.  We both were shooting reduced power .38 special steel loads.

 

I was loading on my Dillion 550 and I'm pretty sure I must have double charged because when I was testing the loads in my wife's revolver, I was startled when there was a much louder report and the cylinder cracked in two.  Thank goodness for the billet aluminum Tasco pro point red dot sight mount or the top strap would have blown up as well.

 

I stopped reloading for 28 years, have recently started back up with a rebuilt 550 press and load with no distractions.  I also load with Red Dot, the fluffiest power I know, and 3.4 grs almost fills up the case.  A double charge will completely overfill the case.  Double charges are pretty much impossible due to that.  That said, I may get a 650 or 750 if I continue to increase my shooting now that I've retired.

 

I fell off the horse, and it took 28 years to get back up.  Kudos to you for getting back up so fast.

[TheGoatMumbler]

I had a similar experience but not that bad of an outcome. When initially measuring my powder charge I didn't notice my scale had changed from GRAINS to GRAMS. It could have been worse. I double check the scale a couple times from no on.