WHAT CAUSED THIS?! Blew Up My X5 Legion...

[shred]

I've personally seen X5's blow in a match situation.  To my mind, it was an OOB, not an overcharge.  I've seen those too.

 

 

[HesedTech]

Did some typical internet research and it seems there may actually be two issues here. The first is for that kind of damage it was probably an overcharged load and the second is, yes the firing out of battery problem. 

 

If the X5 can fire out of battery the question is why wasn't it in battery? 

1. The X5 has an issue with barrel fit.

2. The reloaded ammo was not properly plunked tested and gauged causing a slightly out of battery condition.

3. Buy a CZ or Tanfoglio 

[Solsand]

2 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Did some typical internet research and it seems there may actually be two issues here. The first is for that kind of damage it was probably an overcharged load and the second is, yes the firing out of battery problem. 

 

If the X5 can fire out of battery the question is why wasn't it in battery? 

1. The X5 has an issue with barrel fit.

2. The reloaded ammo was not properly plunked tested and gauged causing a slightly out of battery condition.

3. Buy a CZ or Tanfoglio 

Not only did I plunk test (in both my X5 and X5 Legion) every round of the first 400 I made, I measured them all. All showed to be 1.135 +or - .001

[Solsand]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned — but I did touch on in my OP — could bullet setback have caused this problem? I did check the first 100 or so after I finally got my “crimp” right, and they all fed without any resulting change to OAL. But still, just curious...

[Farmer]

Would think it would have to been a lot with that low of a loading. 
Just curious, what was the recoil like? Some have described a double charge like an M80 going off in their hand. More of a detonation.  (as an example)

Edited June 22, 2020 by Farmer

[4n2t0]

3 hours ago, Solsand said:

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned — but I did touch on in my OP — could bullet setback have caused this problem? I did check the first 100 or so after I finally got my “crimp” right, and they all fed without any resulting change to OAL. But still, just curious...

 

You're over-thinking this thing, probably because you don't want to believe that you fukced up. You can crush the bullets with a hammer and it still wouldn't kaboom (see below). Again, here's what happen....you fukced up and double charged the round.

 

https://dailycaller.com/2013/03/05/battered-bullets-does-bullet-setback-matter/

 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by 4n2t0

[rowdyb]

Your process resulted in a double charge. I would say that's 66% you and 34% your press choice.

 

A 650 w the powder sensor will significantly reduce you introducing human error into it.

 

Disclosure I like titegroup and have loaded over 50lbs of it in 9mm over the years. My first press was a Dillon 1050. I have made 5 squibs in my life and zero double charges.

[Solsand]

2 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

You're over-thinking this thing, probably because you don't want to believe that you fukced up. You can crush the bullets with a hammer and it still wouldn't kaboom (see below). Again, here's what happen....you fukced up and double charged the round.

 

https://dailycaller.com/2013/03/05/battered-bullets-does-bullet-setback-matter/

 

 

If you'll read some of my follow up posts I believe I have already admitted several time to fckn up. And I have NO problem admitting that. Since I have also admitted that I'm a new reloader (as we all have been at one time or another) I just want to make sure that bullet setback isn't one more thing I need to worry about.

[Solsand]

15 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Your process resulted in a double charge. I would say that's 66% you and 34% your press choice.

 

A 650 w the powder sensor will significantly reduce you introducing human error into it.

 

Disclosure I like titegroup and have loaded over 50lbs of it in 9mm over the years. My first press was a Dillon 1050. I have made 5 squibs in my life and zero double charges.

Yes sir I do believe my process was severely flawed. Too much removing/replacing cases from the shell indexing plate to check and weigh powder. That said, a friend of mine with a 1050 said his powder sensor doesn't work that great with low volume loads like Titegroup in 9mm. Has that been your experience?

[Solvability]

I started reloading for competition pistol in 2001 - rifle since 1974. I used a Lee progressive for years for 9mm until I literally wore it out - powder drops not as consistent as Dillon and a general fiddle factor to keeping it working but I produced good rounds. So what I say is the Dillon was worth it and you likely caused your overpressure event by double charging the case - it sure looks like an over pressure round to me. I hope Sig gives you a fair repair price on that pistol - one of the good things I have seen with Glock is the cheap or free repair regardless of cause and all I have seen were negligent loads.

 

Good luck.

[AHI]

Not your exact load but one I have had tested 147 SNS coated 1.140 shortened to 1.075 the absolute shortest you can load that bullet .

There is only approximately an increase of 5k psi  and still well under 38k psi saami for +p . (powder was Bulls eye)You double charged

a round. You have a barrel /gun that will fire ever so slightly out of battery   causing a unsupported chamber issue to develop/show.

[Solsand]

@Solvability and @AHI Thank you both for the info. @Solvability FWIW, I hadn’t thought of contacting SIG since I assumed this was damage caused by my inexperience. As for consistency with powder drops, the Auto Drum has been on point. I dropped the last of my powder drop bottle one case at a time and measured every one, and 99% were right at 3.0gr.

@AHI as luck would have it I actually bought 1000 147 FN SNS that haven’t arrived yet and I plan to use Sport Pistol per their recommendation. Your comment on seating depth helps a lot.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Solsand
Had not finished post, sent accidentally

[Dwbsig]

Is it possible that you used a piece of brass that was in a 170 power factor load a few times and was on its last leg lol.

[Solsand]

48 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Your process resulted in a double charge. I would say that's 66% you and 34% your press choice.

 

A 650 w the powder sensor will significantly reduce you introducing human error into it.

 

Disclosure I like titegroup and have loaded over 50lbs of it in 9mm over the years. My first press was a Dillon 1050. I have made 5 squibs in my life and zero double charges.

@rowdyb Please don’t laugh but could 6.0gr of Titegroup vs the 3.0 I was supposed to load result in that type of blowout? I believe if I recall correctly that 3.6gr is the max for 147gr but is 6.0 that much of an “overload”? Apologies if this sounds stupid but I just want to understand the dynamics of the f/u I experienced.

[4n2t0]

1 hour ago, Solsand said:

@rowdyb Please don’t laugh but could 6.0gr of Titegroup vs the 3.0 I was supposed to load result in that type of blowout? I believe if I recall correctly that 3.6gr is the max for 147gr but is 6.0 that much of an “overload”? Apologies if this sounds stupid but I just want to understand the dynamics of the f/u I experienced.

 

Yes, nearly doubling a max listed load IS that much of an "overload".

 

I'm brutally honest, as if you couldn't tell from my first post, lol (we're all adults, so I take the pads off). I think you're asking questions to which you should already know the answers to IF you educated yourself appropriately BEFORE reloading.

Edited June 22, 2020 by 4n2t0

[Aggrofish]

1 hour ago, Solsand said:

@rowdyb Please don’t laugh but could 6.0gr of Titegroup vs the 3.0 I was supposed to load result in that type of blowout? I believe if I recall correctly that 3.6gr is the max for 147gr but is 6.0 that much of an “overload”? Apologies if this sounds stupid but I just want to understand the dynamics of the f/u I experienced.

It doesn't take much of a screwup with titegroup ( a powder I personally use) A DOUBLE charge even starting with a small 3.0 charge would no doubt be catastrophic. 

[dansedgli]

8 hours ago, Solsand said:

@dansedgli To be clear, I'm assuming that I'm pulling the trigger while easing the slide forward, as in the video that someone posted on here earlier correct? 

 

 

Yep. My X5's slides had to come quite far back to unlock the barrel. My early one could release the striker at that position but the new one wouldn't release the striker after only a tiny bit of movement. That's the role of the new disconnector and milled portion under the rear of the slide, like a 1911. 

[rowdyb]

Yes 6.0 grains of tg will definitely do that to a case and your gun.

[mveto]

2 hours ago, Solsand said:

That said, a friend of mine with a 1050 said his powder sensor doesn't work that great with low volume loads like Titegroup in 9mm. Has that been your experience?

When I was using Titegroup and loading 3.0 grains my Dillon powder sensor had no issues measuring that low of a charge. As long as it’s set up correctly the powder sensor will easily be able to verify the charge.

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, mveto said:

When I was using Titegroup and loading 3.0 grains my Dillon powder sensor had no issues measuring that low of a charge. As long as it’s set up correctly the powder sensor will easily be able to verify the charge.

Second this experience 

[Grandmastah]

You would probably need to process your brass first to free up a station, but the RCBS lock out die will stop you from advancing if your powder charge is +/-  .3 gr of what you adjusted it for.  I have never tested its claimed accuracy, but it will definitely detect a no charge or double charge of a target 3 gr.  

[4n2t0]

1 hour ago, mveto said:

When I was using Titegroup and loading 3.0 grains my Dillon powder sensor had no issues measuring that low of a charge. As long as it’s set up correctly the powder sensor will easily be able to verify the charge.

 

11 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Second this experience 

 

Third.

[Solsand]

41 minutes ago, Grandmastah said:

You would probably need to process your brass first to free up a station, but the RCBS lock out die will stop you from advancing if your powder charge is +/-  .3 gr of what you adjusted it for.  I have never tested its claimed accuracy, but it will definitely detect a no charge or double charge of a target 3 gr.  

@Grandmastah I was actually looking at that last nite. I am already, at present, decapping off-press and then wet tumbling, and then priming on an Auto Bench Prime ( I’m doing all of this just to get used to the individual processes). I could re-size off- press and then move everything up one hole — flare/powder drop in hole #1, lock out die #2, seat bullet #3 and FCD in #4. Thoughts anyone?

 

FYI, FWIW I really wouldn’t have minded getting a Dillon 750 with all the goodies from the get go. But my grown kids talked to my best friend and, based on 20 years of loading on all things Lee he suggested the Lee Pro 4000 which they bought me as a surprise for my birthday. They’re hearts were definitely in the right place. In any case, I know Dillon is the Industry leader but I hesitate to blame my press. As @rowdyband a few others have mentioned (and I agree) my overly OCD process was likely the culprit, but that’s just my opinion. I really appreciate EVERYONE who has taken the time to weigh in with excellent advice and theories. The combined years of reloading experience from those of you who have commented is invaluable. There truly is no substitute.

[HesedTech]

10 hours ago, Solsand said:

Not only did I plunk test (in both my X5 and X5 Legion) every round of the first 400 I made, I measured them all. All showed to be 1.135 +or - .001

Sounds good. 
 

The reason I asked was it seems the X5 can be fried out of battery and a round slightly too long or not passing the plunk test could have caused it to be out of battery. But as most seem to agree probably a double charge and maybe combined with an OOB firing. 
 

The only reason your press is the problem is because Lee requires more attention and one can make a mistake easier. For the dollars it works well, just make sure your powder drop is correct before moving to the bullet seating stage. 
 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by HesedTech

[Solsand]

2 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Sounds good. 
 

The reason I asked was it seems the X5 can be fried out of battery and a round slightly too long or not passing the plunk test could have caused it to be out of battery. But as most seem to agree probably a double charge and maybe combined with an OOB firing. 
 

The only reason your press is the problem is because Lee requires more attention and one can make a mistake easier. For the dollars it works well, just make sure your powder drop is correct before moving to the bullet seating stage. 
 

 

Yes sir excellent advice. Thank you.