GearHead36 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 I'm fairly new to reloading rimless cartridges. Most of my experience has been with revolver cartridges and 30-30 rifle, all of which use a roll crimp. I recently bought a used Hornady Lock-N-Load AP, and it came with dies. The dies (Hornady) are the roll crimp version. I've tried to seat a bullet, and do a plunk test to find my max COAL, but... I have now verified that I have the wrong crimp for my gun. Anyway.... which is better? Lee's FCD or Hornady's taper crimp die? The guy who did this comparison likes Dillon dies best, followed by Hornady, then Lee, but that's mostly for the sizing die. I wouldn't mind sticking with Hornady if the quality of the die and crimp are the same. That way, if I have a problem, I won't have Lee and Hornady pointing fingers at each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwbsig Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Don’t get the Lee factory crimp die just get a Hornady or lee taper crimp die. The lee fcd will swage you lead bullets down to the size of jacketed bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dwbsig said: Don’t get the Lee factory crimp die just get a Hornady or lee taper crimp die. The lee fcd will swage you lead bullets down to the size of jacketed bullets. Ah, I didn't even realize that Lee had a taper crimp die. I thought the FCD was the only one they had. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougM Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Are you sure the Hornady dies are roll crimps? I have Hornady 45ACP dies and mine are taper crimped. How did you determine they are roll crimped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tires2burn Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Go to you you tube and you will see and find what will work best for you. All you basically need to do is take the flair out to make the case straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC10 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 hi, i have been loading these for years using a Redding taper crimp die. i set the crimp at a "dead nuts" .470. (oal of 1.270) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 3 hours ago, DougM said: Are you sure the Hornady dies are roll crimps? I have Hornady 45ACP dies and mine are taper crimped. How did you determine they are roll crimped? I took the die apart, and observed a hard ridge in the die body. A taper crimp would be smooth. I have the 546554 set. On Hornady's site, that set is shown with a seating die (044151) but not a taper crimp seating die (no # for that). They DO specify a P/N (044172) for a taper crimp only die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHI Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) You have a older set of Hornady dies to load 45 acp/45 colt /45 win mag/45 AR. I have a set . IT is a roll crimp seat/crimp combo. At one time you roll crimped them all including ACP. Later you could perchance a taper crimp die . winch you need . Edited June 20, 2020 by AHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougM Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Hey, Gearhead. I have the same set of 45ACP dies (Set # 546554) and the crimp die is a taper crimp. I have reloaded many thousands of rounds using this set and no problems at all with the taper crimp - as long as you set it correctly. I have used it with jacketed, plated, lead, and coated bullets and never had the slightest problem. Unless you got a different crimp die in your set (which I seriously doubt), you already have a taper crimp die and it is a decent die. Don't waste your money on any other die - just set it up right and use the money to buy components. Then go shoot. If you don't believe me on the die, call Hornady and talk to Customer Service. They are excellent and will tell you what you have to set your mind at rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougM Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 One thing just occurred to me. You said you got the press and dies used. Check with the previous owner to be sure he didn't substitute a different die to get a roll crimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, DougM said: Hey, Gearhead. I have the same set of 45ACP dies (Set # 546554) and the crimp die is a taper crimp. Are you sure about that? This page shows two sets of 45acp dies. One taper crimp, and one without. The taper crimp set is 546555. The other set (no crimp type specified) is 546554, which is what I have. I purchased a set of 9mm dies with taper crimp. This video shows how to set up the taper crimp/seating die. My 9mm crimp/seating die looks like the one in the video. My 45 crimp/seat die doesn't look like the one in the video. 1 hour ago, DougM said: One thing just occurred to me. You said you got the press and dies used. Check with the previous owner to be sure he didn't substitute a different die to get a roll crimp. That's a possibility, but the more I dig into setting up this press, the more I think that he never used it. Or... he bought it used, and never used it. It shows almost no wear, but it was dirty, and completely lacking in lubrication. The top photo shows the two seat/crimp dies. The die on the left is 9mm, the one on the right is 45. Notice that they're not the same. The bottom photo is of the inside of the 45 crimp die. Note the ridge for the roll crimp. I'm quite sure the 45 crimp die is a roll crimp. Edited June 21, 2020 by GearHead36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo45 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I had a bullet set back issue with my 625 revo and 230 gr FMJ bullets. Got a Lee Factory Crimp die and no longer had the problem. Couldn't say about resizing cast bullets or other crimp dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougM Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Hey, Gearhead. The photo you showed first is of the seating die. The knurled knob at the top sets the bullet seating depth, which I suspect you already know. The crimp die, however, has a thru hole with the only adjustment being the depth the die sits in the toolhead. If your second photo is of your crimp die, that is clearly different than mine. I do NOT have the ridge you show in that photo. Also, my crimp die has "45ACP TC AP" stamped on the top of the die. By the way, I bought my set (546554) new from Hornady and read the part number directly from the plastic box so I know I'm not mixing up part numbers. I'm at a loss on why your crimp die looks different from mine if your set is truly the part number you quoted. Unless the original owner switched dies on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 The Lee Factory Carbide Crimp die is designed for .4515" dia bullets. It will swage the portion of larger diameter bullets that is inside the case to .4515". I use that die for my bullseye loads and the is no loss of accuracy with my Dardas .452" LSWC, or the Precision coated version of the same. It does take care of the Glock bulge if present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, DougM said: Hey, Gearhead. The photo you showed first is of the seating die. The knurled knob at the top sets the bullet seating depth, which I suspect you already know. The crimp die, however, has a thru hole with the only adjustment being the depth the die sits in the toolhead. If your second photo is of your crimp die, that is clearly different than mine. I do NOT have the ridge you show in that photo. Also, my crimp die has "45ACP TC AP" stamped on the top of the die. By the way, I bought my set (546554) new from Hornady and read the part number directly from the plastic box so I know I'm not mixing up part numbers. I'm at a loss on why your crimp die looks different from mine if your set is truly the part number you quoted. Unless the original owner switched dies on you. The first photo is of two seating/crimp dies. I don't have any crimp-only dies (yet). The second photo is of the crimp portion of the seat/crimp die. It's an insert. The P/N I specified came off my die box, too. Maybe Hornady made a change at some point. Either way, now I need a taper crimp die for 45. The $64K, though, is, why would they ever make 45acp dies with a roll crimp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 On 6/20/2020 at 2:13 PM, Dwbsig said: Don’t get the Lee factory crimp die just get a Hornady or lee taper crimp die. The lee fcd will swage you lead bullets down to the size of jacketed bullets. Is this a bad thing? What's the consequence of having my coated bullets swaged down to the size of jacketed bullets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwbsig Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 5 hours ago, GearHead36 said: Is this a bad thing? What's the consequence of having my coated bullets swaged down to the size of jacketed bullets? Yes generally lead bullets are one thousand larger in dia. Then a jacket bullets. When you use a lee factory crimp die with lead bullets it’s going the swage it one thousand smaller then it’s supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 6 hours ago, GearHead36 said: Is this a bad thing? What's the consequence of having my coated bullets swaged down to the size of jacketed bullets? According to the internet: "Lead bullets are oversize to seal the hot gasses behind the bullet in the barrel. Hot gasses escaping around the base of the lead bullet will melt the sides of the bullet depositing lead in the bore. Jacketed bullets (and gas checked lead bullets) are not subject to melting because the copper alloy jackets (and checks) have a much higher melting temp than lead. A lead bullet of any hardness will lead the bore of the gun if it is not slightly lager (.002"+) than the barrel's groove diameter (the largest part of the barrel." According to my farting around with mainly 9mm sns coated, too much crimp seems to have me throwing curve balls that break somewhere around 25 yards, I had assumed this was about breaking the coating unevenly but that is a wild guess. Going from .356 coated to .358 coated cured a bad leading issue on a Smith 929 revolver, night and day improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Dwbsig said: Yes generally lead bullets are one thousand larger in dia. Then a jacket bullets. When you use a lee factory crimp die with lead bullets it’s going the swage it one thousand smaller then it’s supposed to be. According to various YT videos on the Lee FCD, it looks like a taper die that resizes further down than a typical taper die, and you can adjust the amount of crimp applied to the crimp area (case mouth). It has two adjustments. One, how far down you set the die body, and two, how far down you set the crimp insert. A taper crimp die just has the first adjustment. Can't the FCD be adjusted so that it doesn't break the coating? I'm not trying to sell the Lee FCD, but I know people who use it, and say that they can't get their rounds to plunk otherwise, and I think I may be in that boat, too. My 9mm dies have a seat/crimp die. On my attempt to set it up, I set the seating depth, then backed it off, and then set the crimp. It would plunk fine in one gun (an M&P), but not the other (a S&W Shield). I kept increasing the crimp, but could never get it to plunk in the Shield. My commercial Speer rounds plunk just fine in the Shield. Maybe the bullet was hitting the lands on the Shield, but not on the M&P. I set the COAL using measurements from the M&P. I'll do some more experimenting tonight. Thanks to all for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHI Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 7 minutes ago, GearHead36 said: According to various YT videos on the Lee FCD, it looks like a taper die that resizes further down than a typical taper die, and you can adjust the amount of crimp applied to the crimp area (case mouth). It has two adjustments. One, how far down you set the die body, and two, how far down you set the crimp insert. A taper crimp die just has the first adjustment. Can't the FCD be adjusted so that it doesn't break the coating? YES IF YOUR CASES ARE SIZED CORRECTLY BUT ITS BETTER TO USE THE CORRECT TAPER CRIMP DIE INSTEAD OF LEES PROBLEM CREATING DIE. IF YOU USE ALEE FCD WITH COATED BULLETS YOU WILL HAVE ACCERCEY ISSUES /SMOKE/LEAD FOULING. I'm not trying to sell the Lee FCD, but I know people who use it, and say that they can't get their rounds to plunk otherwise, and I think I may be in that boat, too. My 9mm dies have a seat/crimp die. On my attempt to set it up, I set the seating depth, then backed it off, and then set the crimp. It would plunk fine in one gun (an M&P), but not the other (a S&W Shield). I kept increasing the crimp, but could never get it to plunk in the Shield. My commercial Speer rounds plunk just fine in the Shield. Maybe the bullet was hitting the lands on the Shield, but not on the M&P. I set the COAL using measurements from the M&P. I'll do some more experimenting tonight. YOU HAVE A SIZING PROBLEM .CRIMP IS ONLY TO REMOVE THE FLAIR/EXPANSION. Thanks to all for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHI Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I recently removed a LFCD from a frends press. Installed a standard taper crimp die and adjusted it for hem. He was having heavy smoke ,leading and bullets were tumbling. He is a very experienced re loader. After Sundays match with this setup all his problems are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 3 hours ago, AHI said: I recently removed a LFCD from a frends press. Installed a standard taper crimp die and adjusted it for hem. He was having heavy smoke ,leading and bullets were tumbling. He is a very experienced re loader. After Sundays match with this setup all his problems are gone. What kind of bullets is he using? Cast? Coated? Plated? Jacketed? As I understand the responses here, some types of crimp work with some types of bullets, and not others. It sounds like the FCD works only with some type bullets. Does the standard taper crimp work with all bullet types? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHI Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) His bullets were coated. The standard taper crimp works with all types. FCD only works with jacketed. There are some talented individuals that can make it work with the other types. Edited June 23, 2020 by AHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearHead36 Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 OK, here's what was giving me trouble. I seated a bullet (9mm in this case) to a certain COAL. I have a taper crimp die in 9mm, and after using it, the round plunked just fine in one gun, but not the other. I kept dialing in more and more taper crimp, but it would never plunk in gun 2, so I was thinking I needed a different crimp*, maybe the FCD. AND... I know of a couple of local shooters who use the FCD. I'm pretty sure one of them is shooting Blue Bullets. * Both guns are S&W M&Ps, one is the FS, one is the Shield, so I thought that the chambers would be sized the same. Anyway... last night, I seated another bullet, this time 0.050 shorter, and after taper crimping, it plunked fine in the Shield. I may have to develop a recipe for each gun. I probably should anyway... the PF is different for the two classes. I now have taper crimp dies in 9 and 45 on order. I want the 9 die so I can seat and crimp separately. I wish the mfrs would sell die sets targeted at progressive presses, with a sizer die, a seating die and a crimp die. Thanks to all for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George16 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 You did it right by shortening the COAL after it didn’t plunk to your other gun initially. Increasing the crimp will not help since the long coal allows the bullet to touch the lands. As to manufacturer selling die sets for progressive presses having a sizer, searing and crimp die, Dillon, Lee, hornady, Redding and others sell such sets. Personally, I don’t like a combination seating/crimping die. I always use a separate seating and crimping die on all the ammo and calibers I load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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