Best MOA Dot for USPSA.

[waktasz]

I went from a 5moa SRO to a 2.5 and definitely prefer it, but I have recently lasered eyeballs and very good vision. I'm sure it varies for everyone.

 

[CocoBolo]

The Devil is always in the details.  If the conversation were around the legendary C-More slide ride, I'd recommend a 8 moa dot, because the 6 moa tends to get washed out in the Texas sun, but if the conversation were around the modern Micro Dot like say a Romeo 1, then 6 is plenty too big, as that 6 is larger than the C-more 8, and a lot brighter.  Holosun is popular with the big ring and the small dot, have not tried one but I run an EOTech on PCC, in spite of its multi decade age it continues to function, and it is a great set up for shooting steel.  

 

A 6 or an 8 makes a good start.   For years I ran a 6 moa on one open gun, and 8's on the others, for those difficult matches (one of the clubs here puts on) I'd grab the 6, but for the run and guns I'd grab the 8.   My "A" hit percentage was always better with the 6, and that also resulted in better match finishes.   Could be a little struggle seeing the dot makes you focus more on shot placement?  Pick one an run with it.

[Cuz]

25 minutes ago, CocoBolo said:

Pick one an run with it.

Lol, that’s not always as easy as it sounds with availability the way it is these days. Finding the specific optic you want could be as hard as finding Bullets, powder, or dare I say primers. 
 

[jt1207]

I've been shooting Limited and just got an Open gun to start in that division. It came with a rts2 6moa. I already have a 1moa SRO, 3moa Venom, and 6moa Viper that I use on various range guns and after looking through them all and playing with them thinking about uspsa, the difference that seems the most important to me is the size of the shell/lens surface (or whatever the proper name is) that I have to look through. Seems like big window to look through is key, but that doesn't seem to factor much into the discussion here. Is that just a given that I should use one with a big window or no?

[CocoBolo]

23 hours ago, Cuz said:

Lol, that’s not always as easy as it sounds with availability the way it is these days. Finding the specific optic you want could be as hard as finding Bullets, powder, or dare I say primers. 
 

I've had no problem finding bullets 12,000 in the last month, and powder is plentiful locally.  Primers are like flying spotted unicorns.  In the past couple of months I've bought 2 optics, a C-More and a Romeo 1, while Optics Planet and Shooters Connection are my favorite places to shop, they both came from Amazon since they had the best price, and it was quick.   I'm sure some optics may be scarce, but one thing is for sure, the prices are going to go up!  

[CocoBolo]

5 hours ago, jt1207 said:

I've been shooting Limited and just got an Open gun to start in that division. It came with a rts2 6moa. I already have a 1moa SRO, 3moa Venom, and 6moa Viper that I use on various range guns and after looking through them all and playing with them thinking about uspsa, the difference that seems the most important to me is the size of the shell/lens surface (or whatever the proper name is) that I have to look through. Seems like big window to look through is key, but that doesn't seem to factor much into the discussion here. Is that just a given that I should use one with a big window or no?

If the field of view is too small that isn't good. 

I think that our perceptions often mislead us.  The Timer can keep us on the right path.   Set up a drill and run it with the different optics and let the best time confirm or deny the perception.    The drill should be representative to the type of shooting you do, and accuracy needs to be a factor.  Don't shoot it with your limited gun, you might be faster. 

[jt1207]

6 minutes ago, CocoBolo said:

If the field of view is too small that isn't good. 

I think that our perceptions often mislead us.  The Timer can keep us on the right path.   Set up a drill and run it with the different optics and let the best time confirm or deny the perception.    The drill should be representative to the type of shooting you do, and accuracy needs to be a factor.  Don't shoot it with your limited gun, you might be faster. 

thank you. I was at the range this morning and I already see a difference here--with limited gun I feel like I'm looking/focused at the target as my shot breaks and when doing with the rts2 I am looking for the dot and then match it to the target, which feels slower right now. Is that what you are talking about?

[SGT_Schultz]

Those of you who are slower with a dot are using it incorrectly. 

 

Focusing on the dot instead of on the target, trying to see the world through the optic instead of looking past/around it, and not finding the dot on the draw (clear sign of a poor index) are not the dot's fault but yours.

 

Putting a piece of opaque tape over the front side of the lens and trying to shoot with a dot that way will show you how good or bad you really are.

[SGT_Schultz]

21 hours ago, CocoBolo said:

If the field of view is too small that isn't good. 

That's a problem if you're using the eyes incorrectly.

[Doge]

I have a 5 MOA SRO and even a 10MOA RTS 2 on the Open gun, I do run it dim and only prefer the bigger dot showing less movement. YMMV

[CocoBolo]

On 5/14/2021 at 12:05 PM, jt1207 said:

thank you. I was at the range this morning and I already see a difference here--with limited gun I feel like I'm looking/focused at the target as my shot breaks and when doing with the rts2 I am looking for the dot and then match it to the target, which feels slower right now. Is that what you are talking about?

If you asked me how to find the dot, I'd say look at the target!  Exactly your focus needs to be the target then bring the gun/dot into the filed of view.  In steel challenge your eyes go to the next steel first as you transition.   Tracking the dot only slows you down. 

[CocoBolo]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:18 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

Those of you who are slower with a dot are using it incorrectly. 

 

Focusing on the dot instead of on the target, trying to see the world through the optic instead of looking past/around it, and not finding the dot on the draw (clear sign of a poor index) are not the dot's fault but yours.

 

Putting a piece of opaque tape over the front side of the lens and trying to shoot with a dot that way will show you how good or bad you really are.

Those are all good valid points.   I think the myth is that you are going to pick up a gun with a dot and magically be good with it in a couple of hours of practice, oops not going the happen.  If one does a lot of dry fire from lots of odd positions and does reload practice I think you could get good in a few months.  Just like guitar playing it is muscle memory and that is the same way you build your index.  

[SGT_Schultz]

21 minutes ago, CocoBolo said:

Those are all good valid points.   I think the myth is that you are going to pick up a gun with a dot and magically be good with it in a couple of hours of practice, oops not going the happen.  If one does a lot of dry fire from lots of odd positions and does reload practice I think you could get good in a few months.  Just like guitar playing it is muscle memory and that is the same way you build your index.  

 

The mechanics of picking up the dot on the draw and keeping it in your field of view are easy once one reprograms the draw to come up to the level of the eyes and one stops looking at the gun for confirmation.  It shouldn't take months to do that.

 

What's more difficult is training the brain to use the eyes differently.  Completely opposite, in fact, from what most people are used to doing.

 

Tape over the front of the lens will not lie

Edited May 17, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[jt1207]

On 5/15/2021 at 10:18 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

Those of you who are slower with a dot are using it incorrectly. 

 

Focusing on the dot instead of on the target, trying to see the world through the optic instead of looking past/around it, and not finding the dot on the draw (clear sign of a poor index) are not the dot's fault but yours.

 

Putting a piece of opaque tape over the front side of the lens and trying to shoot with a dot that way will show you how good or bad you really are.

okay thank you for the correction. I went and read a few of the posts about taping the optic lens and I'm going to do that Wednesday and see how it goes.

[jt1207]

1 hour ago, CocoBolo said:

If you asked me how to find the dot, I'd say look at the target!  Exactly your focus needs to be the target then bring the gun/dot into the filed of view.  In steel challenge your eyes go to the next steel first as you transition.   Tracking the dot only slows you down. 

Thank you, I think I can visualize what you're saying. I still need plenty of work on steel as well.

[jt1207]

1 hour ago, CocoBolo said:

Those are all good valid points.   I think the myth is that you are going to pick up a gun with a dot and magically be good with it in a couple of hours of practice, oops not going the happen.  If one does a lot of dry fire from lots of odd positions and does reload practice I think you could get good in a few months.  Just like guitar playing it is muscle memory and that is the same way you build your index.  

quite honestly, I thought I was going to be able to simply "magically be good with it" but that's not the case 

[Cuz]

5 hours ago, jt1207 said:

quite honestly, I thought I was going to be able to simply "magically be good with it" but that's not the case 

I thought that too. Boy, was I ever wrong on that one. 

[SGT_Schultz]

10 hours ago, jt1207 said:

quite honestly, I thought I was going to be able to simply "magically be good with it" but that's not the case 

It isn't the case because a reflex sight exposes and magnifies every one of your flaws

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[jt1207]

4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

It isn't the case because a reflex sight exposes and magnifies every one of your flaws

 

yeah I definitely have more to work on. We'll see if I can make steady improvement.

[Cuz]

6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

It isn't the case because a reflex sight exposes and magnifies every one of your flaws

 

Yeah, my flaws certainly don’t need any more magnification. I was able to locate a 5moa SRO in stock and ordered it. Now I have about 5 days to fantasize about how good I’m going to be as soon as I mount it…

[CocoBolo]

21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The mechanics of picking up the dot on the draw and keeping it in your field of view are easy once one reprograms the draw to come up to the level of the eyes and one stops looking at the gun for confirmation.  It shouldn't take months to do that.

 

What's more difficult is training the brain to use the eyes differently.  Completely opposite, in fact, from what most people are used to doing.

 

Tape over the front of the lens will not lie

From the draw is just one aspect, as is following a reload, add to that you need to practice every common position, like leaning around a wall, crouching in a window, on the move and on and on.   The preponderance of evidence clearly shows as you watch shooters struggle to find their CO dot match after match.  My own  experience making that transition from limited to Open, was within a week I thought I was ready, within a month I knew I wasn't.  If you have even one hesitation in a match caused by the dot, well you have not mastered it yet. 

 

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

37 minutes ago, CocoBolo said:

From the draw is just one aspect, as is following a reload, add to that you need to practice every common position, like leaning around a wall, crouching in a window, on the move and on and on.   The preponderance of evidence clearly shows as you watch shooters struggle to find their CO dot match after match.  My own  experience making that transition from limited to Open, was within a week I thought I was ready, within a month I knew I wasn't.  If you have even one hesitation in a match caused by the dot, well you have not mastered it yet.

 

Iron sights are always visible even if the pistol is pretty down low from eye level.  You can even make acceptable shots at certain distances even if the sights are lower from the eyes than they should be.  That lets people get away with not having the gun up at eye level every second they are pulling the trigger.

 

You cannot drop a pistol with a reflex sight down from the level of your eyes no matter what the body does.

 

Getting used to maintaining the gun up at eye level 100% of the time that you are engaging targets might take days, weeks, or months, depending on how much work someone wants to put in and how kinesthetically aware they are.

 

One can't say it will take everyone months to do so.

Edited May 18, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Cuz]

20 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Getting used to maintaining the gun up at eye level 100% of the time that you are engaging targets might take days, weeks, or months, depending on how much work someone wants to put in and how kinesthetically aware they are.

 

One can't say it will take everyone months to do so.

Any suggestions on the best way to practice that? I am finding it harder to shoot a dot than my iron sights. At least I was before my eyesight started going downhill. Changing my prescription so I could see the front sight now makes it too difficult to acquire the target or navigate a course of fire. At least with my everyday progressive lens glasses I can see the targets clearly. 

[lgh]

13 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Any suggestions on the best way to practice that? I am finding it harder to shoot a dot than my iron sights.

You want to get the dot on the sight line your eyes are on. i.e. You want the gun pointing where you are looking. The line from your nose to the target is a good enough approximation to your sight line. So ...

 

1. Identify the target.

2. Point your nose at the target.

3. Drive the RDS down the sight line you have now created. Do not bring the gun up in an arc. Drive it down the sight line you have created between your nose and target.

4. You will likely find your grip is extremely important in getting and keeping the dot on the target.

 

Once you get it right, practice a lot so the dot always goes where your eyes are looking.

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, lgh said:

You want to get the dot on the sight line your eyes are on. i.e. You want the gun pointing where you are looking. The line from your nose to the target is a good enough approximation to your sight line. So ...

 

1. Identify the target.

2. Point your nose at the target.

3. Drive the RDS down the sight line you have now created. Do not bring the gun up in an arc. Drive it down the sight line you have created between your nose and target.

4. You will likely find your grip is extremely important in getting and keeping the dot on the target.

 

Once you get it right, practice a lot so the dot always goes where your eyes are looking.

 

Are you saying bring the gun up to nose height and then push out?

 

My gun tends to make roughly a straight line from the holster to the firing position. Shortest distance tends to be faster. If you dry fire regularly the gun will go to the right spot with out needing add any steps.