Limited Minor

[DeweyH]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

are heavy guns “mandatory “? how heavy was the production national champ’s gun?

There was some sarcasm intended.  I should have put "" around mandatory.  However, if you listen to all of the hype, they are.   There are hundreds if not thousands of posts here about how to make guns heavier but very few about where to buy a Canik.  Nils' win will not change that.  I do believe that if production were changed to allow the capacity of flush fit magazines then those that have 19 versus 17 would have an advantage.  I would prefer to leave all divisions alone.

[PatJones]

It seems to me that the people who whine the most about their pet gun not being "competitive" in some random division wouldn't be competitive if we let them shoot a submachine gun in revolver division. Stop fooling with the divisions.

Edited May 21, 2021 by PatJones

[rowdyb]

I am shooting Limited minor the rest of the year as that's the best fitment for my IPSC production rig. Race holster and 15 rounds in the mag.

 

My whole focus will be on me and what I'm doing, not any other Limited shooters in those matches.

Edited May 21, 2021 by rowdyb

[Jeff226]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:47 AM, Fishbreath said:

 

The demand/interest in limited minor as an actual serious competition division is a tiny, tiny minority in a vast sea of newcomers who don't have a dot on their gun and didn't bring a bajillion mags for Production.

Completely wrong.  Most people don't want to shoot production just like they don't want to shoot 10 rd carry optics or buy a .40 caliber gun for that matter.

[jt1207]

Seems that single action 9mms are perfect for Limited minor. All those double-stack 1911s/2011s that are super fun to shoot in 9mm (and seem to me to be really popular) should be a natural fit. And at the rate that women and millenials have been buying guns this past year, as some of them get interested in shooting sports, then (I'm secretly hoping) more may shoot in the division. 

[Fishbreath]

11 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Completely wrong.  Most people don't want to shoot production just like they don't want to shoot 10 rd carry optics or buy a .40 caliber gun for that matter.

 

Find me all the serious competitors (who aren't three-gunners shooting their three-gun iron sight guns) who are clamoring for limited minor, then.

 

Ultimately, the rules are what they are, and recent events notwithstanding, changing them annually to chase perceived popularity is a bad idea that only serves to annoy the people who actually keep the sport going. Either newcomers with equipment that doesn't fit another division won't care about USPSA as a sport and continue to play on an unequal field, or they will care, and buy equipment that fits better. That's not a bad thing.

[Balakay]

8 hours ago, jt1207 said:

..... And at the rate that women and millenials have been buying guns this past year, as some of them get interested in shooting sports, then (I'm secretly hoping) more may shoot in the division. 

Are you suggesting that new gun owners (women and millennials) have been flocking to their LGS and buying 9mm 2011s?? Highly unlikely. 

 

3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Find me all the serious competitors (who aren't three-gunners shooting their three-gun iron sight guns) who are clamoring for limited minor, then.

 

Ultimately, the rules are what they are, and recent events notwithstanding, changing them annually to chase perceived popularity is a bad idea that only serves to annoy the people who actually keep the sport going. Either newcomers with equipment that doesn't fit another division won't care about USPSA as a sport and continue to play on an unequal field, or they will care, and buy equipment that fits better. That's not a bad thing.

Agree.  Hate to be blunt, but USPSA  should not be catering to noobs and their equipment choices.  If one wants to shoot Limited Minor,  go for it and accept the scoring penalty. 

[rowdyb]

25 minutes ago, Balakay said:

buying 9mm 2011s?? Highly unlikely. 

 

Funnily enough the past 3 female private students I've had were all over 50 years old and all had a new Stacatto with an optic on it.

[BritinUSA]

51 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Agree.  Hate to be blunt, but USPSA  should not be catering to noobs and their equipment choices.  If one wants to shoot Limited Minor,  go for it and accept the scoring penalty. 

Agreed, if we look at the original intent of the top four divisions, they offered real choice and while different, complemented one another. The four divisions offered choices in cost, sighting, magazine capacity, major/minor, magazine and holster placement,

 

Now the differences are getting blurry, and the choices are less than they were before.

 

This sport is not for everyone; By opening it to everyone, they are watering down the requirements, and to some extent the challenge that created the sport in the first place.

[Balakay]

40 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Funnily enough the past 3 female private students I've had were all over 50 years old and all had a new Stacatto with an optic on it.

They don’t need a new division. 
Welcome to Open. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Balakay

[Jeff226]

 

4 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Find me all the serious competitors (who aren't three-gunners shooting their three-gun iron sight guns) who are clamoring for limited minor, then.

 

Ultimately, the rules are what they are, and recent events notwithstanding, changing them annually to chase perceived popularity is a bad idea that only serves to annoy the people who actually keep the sport going. Either newcomers with equipment that doesn't fit another division won't care about USPSA as a sport and continue to play on an unequal field, or they will care, and buy equipment that fits better. That's not a bad thing.

 

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

Are you suggesting that new gun owners (women and millennials) have been flocking to their LGS and buying 9mm 2011s?? Highly unlikely. 

 

Agree.  Hate to be blunt, but USPSA  should not be catering to noobs and their equipment choices.  If one wants to shoot Limited Minor,  go for it and accept the scoring penalty. 

 

I don't need to find them for you, if you get out of the house you will find them.  It seems they send a significant number of letters to the USPSA as well.

 

Hate to be blunt but ultimately the rules will change again and the momentum is going towards all minor except for open despite the nonsensical objections of those who see a separate limited minor division as a threat to their manhood.

 

[Balakay]

14 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

 

I

 

 

Hate to be blunt but ultimately the rules will change again and the momentum is going towards all minor....

 

Momentum may come to a grinding halt with upcoming elections. We shall see. 
 

[Jeff226]

1 minute ago, Balakay said:

Momentum may come to a grinding halt with upcoming elections. We shall see. 
 

Probably wishful thinking on your part but yes, time will tell.

[Jeff226]

dup

Edited May 22, 2021 by Jeff226

[rowdyb]

25 minutes ago, Balakay said:

They don’t need a new division. 
Welcome to Open. 

I was only commenting on them as new gun buyers, not with any relevance to competition and divisions within uspsa.

[Fishbreath]

29 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I don't need to find them for you, if you get out of the house you will find them.  It seems they send a significant number of letters to the USPSA as well.

 

I get out of the house, and see a lot of beginners and recreational shooters in Limited Minor, and nobody else.

 

29 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

a threat to their manhood.

 

No, I just think it's a dumb rules change, pushed at this stage by people who don't know anything about designing rules.

[Jeff226]

2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I get out of the house, and see a lot of beginners and recreational shooters in Limited Minor, and nobody else.

 

 

No, I just think it's a dumb rules change, pushed at this stage by people who don't know anything about designing rules.

Do you think it is good to have all of those beginners, recreational shooters, and whatever else they get called in limited division to make your finish look better?  Why else would you feel so strongly that they stay in the oh so competitive limited division?

 

I am not sure who you are referring to exactly but I agree that someone who would advocate a rule where minor power factor had a permanent disadvantage in a division (or not fixing it once known) doesn't know a whole lot about making rules.  Same could be said about a person advocating a rule not having a limited minor division when 95% of new handguns sold are high capacity 9mms...as opposed to .40 S&W that the men shoot (downloaded of course).

[motosapiens]

i think we have enough divisions for 9mm minor that are based on the most popular guns sold. pretty sure we don't need another one.

[BritinUSA]

53 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

I am not sure who you are referring to exactly but I agree that someone who would advocate a rule where minor power factor had a permanent disadvantage in a division (or not fixing it once known) doesn't know a whole lot about making rules. 

It’s working as designed; Minor is supposed to have a disadvantage over Major when it comes to scoring. Controlling a minor caliber handgun is easier than controlling a Major caliber. That is why the difference exists.

 

You are free to compete using a minor caliber round in Limited on that understanding. 

 

There are choices in the divisions but we simply cannot create divisions for every person that wants to feel special. Learn to master the gun in the division that you have chosen. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by BritinUSA

[Jeff226]

29 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

It’s working as designed; Minor is supposed to have a disadvantage over Major when it comes to scoring. Controlling a minor caliber handgun is easier than controlling a Major caliber. That is why the difference exists.

 

You are free to compete using a minor caliber round in Limited on that understanding. 

 

There are choices in the divisions but we simply cannot create divisions for every person that wants to feel special. Learn to master the gun in the division that you have chosen. 

It isn't working as designed because it was supposed to be a choice. The disadvantage in scoring was supposed to be able to be overcome with speed/accuracy.  We all know this isn't true as is (those of us that are honest).  As it is now, you don't have a choice...you have to shoot major.  It was working more like it was designed when major pf was 175.  Would work even better at 185.

 

We can simply create divisions that make sense.  Limited minor makes more sense than production, single stack, and revolver from a market and participation perspective.  Propping up downloaded .40 cal makes less sense from every angle.

 

When limited minor gets added, you will be free to participate in that or any of the other divisions available that might make you feel special at the time.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Jeff226
paragraphs

[BritinUSA]

The differences in results are more a consequence of stage design. World shoots have been won in Classic division by people shooting minor.
 

If you think people currently shooting minor in limited are going to win matches you are mistaken, they will be beaten handily by people who will switch from Limited Major to Limited Minor.

[Jeff226]

2 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The differences in results are more a consequence of stage design. World shoots have been won in Classic division by people shooting minor.
 

If you think people currently shooting minor in limited are going to win matches you are mistaken, they will be beaten handily by people who will switch from Limited Major to Limited Minor.

You are cherry picking, major beats minor in limited 95%+ of the time.

 

I think people in limited minor that beat other people in limited minor won't win because of an error in the scoring formula...that is what matters.

[BritinUSA]

I’m not cherry picking at all, the fact that you think so indicates that perhaps you do not understand the impacts that course design has on the results.

 

IPSC stages at major matches are based on a 3-2-1 ratio, 3 x short stages, 2 x medium and 1 x field course.

 

Short stages in USPSA are generally shot from a single position, not so with IPSC where 9 round stages can incorporate lot of lateral and down range movement. 
 

IPSC’s combination of stages more accurately tests the shooting ability of the competitor than USPSA’s local/state matches that tend to have a few large field stages and perhaps a classifier. 

 

 

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

i think we have enough divisions for 9mm minor that are based on the most popular guns sold. pretty sure we don't need another one.

What happens if OEM's run the numbers and decide making any gun in 40 or commercial ammo is no longer viable. Then what used to be the most popular division by activity numbers can in only one way be supported entirely by boutique and aftermarket folks. What do we do when everything commercially made 40 goes the way of 38 super for comparison?

 

Should an important division historically to uspsa and important by the number of folks in it only be viable via small/custom/aftermarket shops?

 

disclosure-not my true opinion or forecasting, but a thought exercise alone.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

Do you think it is good to have all of those beginners, recreational shooters, and whatever else they get called in limited division to make your finish look better?  Why else would you feel so strongly that they stay in the oh so competitive limited division?

 

Your transparent attempt at baiting me is noted and ignored.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

I am not sure who you are referring to exactly but I agree that someone who would advocate a rule where minor power factor had a permanent disadvantage in a division (or not fixing it once known) doesn't know a whole lot about making rules.

 

I can buy a 515cc driver or an aluminum baseball bat, but the driver isn't allowed on the PGA Tour and the bat isn't allowed in MLB. Also, the PGA and MLB aren't changing the rules every year, either.

 

Rules design isn't about allowing everything, or about making every option competitive. It's about providing a stable framework on which competition can happen.