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Limited Minor


HCH
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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

all 300 officers at my federal agency carry .40. At least one county sheriff in my area uses 40 (i pick up their once-fired brass). Most modern guns are offered in 40, and people buy them when they want more power than 9mm provides.

Fewer and fewer guns are being offered in .40.  Your agency is a drop in the bucket and is most likely a money thing more than an elitism thing.  The FBI still has .40 guns but only because the agents carrying them haven't retired out yet.  The gun buying public cares even less about .40 than law enforcement...which statistically doesn't care much at all.  Anybody that is paying attention knows that .40 is not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way, even less so when loaded down to 165 pf.

 

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Just now, Jeff226 said:

Yes they are.  I have at least 2 emails from Foley that say that exact thing.  Ask him yourself.

 

I have 3 that says they're not. 

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3 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

You are missing the point.  DVC says minor and major should both be competitive, that is why there is a power factor formula to begin with.  The fallacy is that DVC still matters.

 

 

What?

It says nothing of the sort. 

 

"Accuracy, Power, Speed".  

"Power" gives nod to the fact that Cooper thought more power (major PF) was advantageous in defensive shooting (thereby it is advantageous in practical shooting). 

 

"DVC" was Coopers formula for successful defensive shooting. Nothing more, nothing less. 

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4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I have 3 that says they're not. 

If you had those then you would be aware of more people than just me that are advocates of limited minor.  

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10 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Fewer and fewer guns are being offered in .40.  Your agency is a drop in the bucket and is most likely a money thing more than an elitism thing.  The FBI still has .40 guns but only because the agents carrying them haven't retired out yet.  The gun buying public cares even less about .40 than law enforcement...which statistically doesn't care much at all.  Anybody that is paying attention knows that .40 is not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way, even less so when loaded down to 165 pf.

 

 

How many agencies are running 38 super comp these days? How do open shooters manage? How many are running 38 short colt? How do revolver shooters manage? 

 

Oh yeah they just go buy what they need to be competitive. 

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

How many agencies are running 38 super comp these days? How do open shooters manage? How many are running 38 short colt? How do revolver shooters manage? 

 

Oh yeah they just go buy what they need to be competitive. 

I didn't bring up the agencies.  300 people carrying .40s in some minor LEO outfit has no bearing in USPSA as far as I am concerned.

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20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I can't be competitive in open with out a dot we should have Limited with comps.

I can't be competitive in open with out a comp, we should have open with out comps

I can't be competitive in open with minor we should have open minor

I can't be competitive in open with 140's we should have mid cap open

I can't be competitive in open with a skinny gun we should have OG-Open

I can't be competitive in open with a slide mounted dot. We should have SAO-CO

I can't be competitive in open with a 40, we should have a division for that

I can't be competitive in Limited with a minor gun we should have limited minor

I can't be competitive in limited with a 45 we should have Lords-Limited

I can't be competitive in limited without a 2011 we should have striker limited

I can't be competitive in any division with my carry gun we should have a carry division

I can't be competitive in CO with a plastic gun we should have CO light and heavy like the rest of the world.

I can't be competitive at SS nats with a minor gun it should be two divisions

I can't be competitive in Revo with a major gun it should be two divisions

I can't shoot a revolver in CO, we should have Revo optics

I can't be competitive in PCC with irons it should be a division. 

I can't be competitive in.........

 

 

 

There should probably be a speed loader division for revo too. Can't believe I missed that one

 

 

Finally, somebody who gets it...

And, of course, everybody should get a participation trophy, and we should stop keeping score altogether so we don't hurt anyone's feelings.

 

 

Edited by Cuz
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12 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

"DVC" was Coopers formula for successful defensive shooting. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Then how/why did it become a "foundation" of IPSC shooting and the basis of the power factor based scoring?

IPSC Motto

The Latin words Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) meaning accuracy, power, and speed are IPSC's motto and form the foundation for competition. 

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3 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Then how/why did it become a "foundation" of IPSC shooting and the basis of the power factor based scoring?

IPSC Motto

The Latin words Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) meaning accuracy, power, and speed are IPSC's motto and form the foundation for competition. 

 

"DVC" is the reason Major PF scoring is advantageous. That's not super hard to grasp. 

Per the "DVC" motto....

More accuracy = better

More power = better

More speed = better 

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27 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Anybody that is paying attention knows that .40 is not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way, even less so when loaded down to 165 pf.

 

that's just bad math. I know many agencies have gone to guns that are easier for noobs to shoot to help with their 'diversity', and they use claims of 'effectiveness' to justify their dumbing down, but any meaningful measure of power is going to include velocity and bullet weight. 40 is simply a more powerful cartridge.

 

You can argue that you don't actually *need* all that power, especially if you want to recruit people who aren't interested in learning to shoot more powerful guns, but you can't be taken seriously if you try to argue that power difference doesn't exist.

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18 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I didn't bring up the agencies. 

you falsely claimed that no one except serious limited shooters is interested in 40. I corrected your false statement and provided an example. There are many more.

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7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you falsely claimed that no one except serious limited shooters is interested in 40. I corrected your false statement and provided an example. There are many more.

 

Statistically, the general gun buying public cares not about .40.  Yes, a few suckers buy one if they run across it cheap at Academy but very few people outside of USPSA limited shooters seek them out.  Regardless, I didn't bring up agencies.  What 300 +/- LEOs do with their old .40s has no bearing on the viability of Limited major.  The fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold does.  

 

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that's just bad math. I know many agencies have gone to guns that are easier for noobs to shoot to help with their 'diversity', and they use claims of 'effectiveness' to justify their dumbing down, but any meaningful measure of power is going to include velocity and bullet weight. 40 is simply a more powerful cartridge.

 

You can argue that you don't actually *need* all that power, especially if you want to recruit people who aren't interested in learning to shoot more powerful guns, but you can't be taken seriously if you try to argue that power difference doesn't exist.

 

I said not "not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way."  That obviously means I know there is a difference, but it means nothing in their selection process.   Current 9mm meets their penetration requirements while expanding and retaining mass.  It also breaks guns less frequently, costs less, requires stocking of fewer calibers, and it is easier for everyone to shoot.  Switching was a no brainer regardless of who they are running through the academy.  HRT can choose whatever they want to carry, they chose Glock 17s.  You call the FBI firearms unit and tell them they are doing it wrong and can't be taken seriously.  I am sure they will care as much as I do.  

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On 6/13/2020 at 3:10 PM, HCH said:

I was shooting a match today and noticed that we had quite a few Limited Minor shooters. One guy on my squad was shooting a G17 and another was shooting an X5 Legion. Both of them are fairly experienced shooters. 

 

I don’t understand why anyone would shoot a minor gun in limited since we have CO as a large, growing division. 

 

Thoughts? How does the Major/Minor split in Limited look in your part of the world? Is there a good reason to shoot Limited Minor at all, when a guy has a CO legal gun?

 

I have zero interest in Carry Optics.  Maybe they're like me and that wasn't even a consideration.  If I wanted to shoot with an optic, I would shoot Open.

 

In my experience, limited minor is not something that shooters who are actually competitive would be doing. It's a place to park people who don't have equipment that fits well in another division.  For example, the guy who shows up with his new Glock 17 but only has 3 magazines.  Limited minor is a good place to put him.

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32 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Statistically, the general gun buying public cares not about .40.  Yes, a few suckers buy one if they run across it cheap at Academy but very few people outside of USPSA limited shooters seek them out.  Regardless, I didn't bring up agencies.  What 300 +/- LEOs do with their old .40s has no bearing on the viability of Limited major.  The fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold does.  

 

 

I said not "not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way."  That obviously means I know there is a difference, but it means nothing in their selection process.   Current 9mm meets their penetration requirements while expanding and retaining mass.  It also breaks guns less frequently, costs less, requires stocking of fewer calibers, and it is easier for everyone to shoot.  Switching was a no brainer regardless of who they are running through the academy.  HRT can choose whatever they want to carry, they chose Glock 17s.  You call the FBI firearms unit and tell them they are doing it wrong and can't be taken seriously.  I am sure they will care as much as I do.  

 

Power is one of the principles of practical shooting.  I don't carry a .40 on the street but I understand why it's rewarded in competition.  I can carry whatever I want, too, and I never carry a .40 or any caliber that starts with a 4. 

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19 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Statistically, the general gun buying public cares not about .40.

 

Statistically, the Limited gun buying shooter cares not about 9mm.

 

21 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I said not "not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way."  That obviously means I know there is a difference, but it means nothing in their selection process.   Current 9mm meets their penetration requirements while expanding and retaining mass.  It also breaks guns less frequently, costs less, requires stocking of fewer calibers, and it is easier for everyone to shoot.  Switching was a no brainer regardless of who they are running through the academy.  HRT can choose whatever they want to carry, they chose Glock 17s.  You call the FBI firearms unit and tell them they are doing it wrong and can't be taken seriously.  I am sure they will care as much as I do.  

 

The fact that FBI chose a 9 doesn't mean that the people using those weapons would make the same choice.  And FBI's choice is totally irrelevant to what anyone would choose for a competition gun.

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3 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Power is one of the principles of practical shooting.  I don't carry a .40 on the street but I understand why it's rewarded in competition.  I can carry whatever I want, too, and I never carry a .40 or any caliber that starts with a 4. 

I agree it is a principle but it has been proven that .40 is rewarded too much.  So all I am saying is the power factors for limited should be separate as I think correcting the formula would be an even more difficult task.

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5 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

1.  Statistically, the Limited gun buying shooter cares not about 9mm.

 

2.  The fact that FBI chose a 9 doesn't mean that the people using those weapons would make the same choice.  

 

3.  And FBI's choice is totally irrelevant to what anyone would choose for a competition gun.

1.  Great.  As the old people shooting .40 die off, who is going to give money to the USPSA and/or your local matches?

 

2.  The fact that agents were overwhelmingly choosing 9mms as personally owned weapons and HRT choosing 9mms over everything  else indicates that the people using them prefer 9mm.

 

3. I agree, that is why I said several times that it is the gun buying public who are buying 9mms that matter.  

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20 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I agree it is a principle but it has been proven that .40 is rewarded too much.  So all I am saying is the power factors for limited should be separate as I think correcting the formula would be an even more difficult task.

 

 

WHO says Major is rewarded too much? You?  I say it’s rewarded just the right amount. 

 

Where did you dream up the idea that anyone ever intended for major and minor to be even remotely competitive against each other within the same division? By your own example, the IPSC/USPSA motto REWARDS "power".  

Edited by Ssanders224
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Just now, Ssanders224 said:

 

Again, this is COMPLETE fallacy. 

 

WHO says Major is rewarded too much? You?  

Where did you dream up the idea that anyone ever intended for major and minor to be even remotely competitive against each other? By your own example, the IPSC/USPSA motto REWARDS "power".  

Are you serious?  If they didn't intend for them to be competitive they would have never put them in the same competitive divisions and/or came up with a scoring systems that attempts to make them comparable.

 

The results consistently show that major is rewarded too much.

 

10 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Is it possible that Jeff=Beard?

 

I have never been Beard or been on a site called doodie.

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I had shot SS with a 45 for years. I had a CZ75B SAO in 9mm that is I liked. Just for a change of pace I shot it in Limited. By chance a shooter was selling a CZ Tac Sport with both 9mm and 40 complete uppers. I had never owned or loaded for 40 S&W before. Had nothing against it, just never picked up a gun in 40 before. Bought it.

Bought once fired brass, bullets and dies and started loading. Wasn't a big deal. Easy to load.

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