Outer Limits - Penalty for shooting from one box

[mchapman]

I am sure that it has been discussed before, but how about making it like showdown with the exception that while in the left box you must start with the left targets and vice versua with right hand box and eliminate the center one and movment?

[xpierrat]

This was "well discussed" last year...  and the best solution that I heard was similar to yours except it was change to 5 strings instead of 4 , no movement on the clock, one string from each of the 3 box's with last two strings shooters choice like showdown and sequence was up to the shooter... getting a fair and just penalty for no movement that works for all divisions is the big problem with apparently no good solution 

 

[edyan]

I also shot that Fla State match and received that 2 sec penalty which I also agree was too liberal ... put me in the 15 sec range (never see that again).

I'm 74 and need a cain to walk anything more than a short distance, the reason I take the penalty is for safety reasons because I stumbled and fell down trying to go fast the standard way one time....I can do it in about 5-6 sec if I'm careful...I'm only about 3 sec behind making M in PCCO so I shoot the other stages pretty well... I'll be glad to hang my handicap parking permit on my little wagon if proof is needed. 

 

edyan A646

[Hammer002]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 4:46 PM, Sigarmsp226 said:

So to my questions

 

1- Shooter decides to NOT move out of the left box and shoots all five plates from the left box....What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

2 - Shooter starts in the middle box and does not move and shoots all five plates from the center box....What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

3 - Shooter Starts in the middle box and shoots ONLY the three plates that are normally shot from this box (does not move)...What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

Thanks 

 

Mark

 

Figured I would duck back in here and check on everyone!  This is actually a really good question.  I had to break out the rules to make sure my thinking was correct.  It was, but I had to double check, so a good conversation.  I read all the responses, and I'm not sure it got correctly or completely explained.

 

1.  First, assuming the shooter is right handed and the left box is the appropriate starting position, the following penalties would apply:  A four second penalty for not moving.  Three second penalties for each of the plates hit from the incorrect box = three 3 second penalties.  ZZT appropriately explained they aren't really considered "misses" except in the language describing a situation where the "mistake" is realized and the plates made up from the correct box.  I think what was really being asked here is if it was a 30 for a missed stop plate due to the language "misses."  No.

 

The next two are moot it the competitor has not been specifically allowed to shoot from the center box upon request and approval involving the MD.  The questions seem odd and not to assume this, but its important to understand because these strings would be null and void because a shooter may not be started in an inappropriate shooting position.  This includes hands in the wrong position, or not high enough, facing the wrong direction, etc, also including incorrect shooting box in showdown or outer limits.  So -

 

2.  If the shooter has been approved to shoot from the center box = no penalties.  If the shooter has not been approved to shoot from the middle box, he may not be started while in the middle box.  Following the logic of the question to the next step, if the shooter starts in appropriate box and moves to middle upon audible tone, shooting all plates from the center = two 3 second penalties.

 

3.  Again, assuming the shooter has been approved to shoot from the middle box, two three second penalties for missed plates.  Possibly one of the things to overcome here, not sure, is Steel Challenge does not have a fail to engage penalty if that was what was also being asked.  And again, if the shooter has not received prior approval to shoot from the middle box, he may not be started in the middle box.  And last, if the shooter starts in the appropriate box, immediately moves to the middle box upon hearing the audible tone and shoots plates 3, 4, and the stop plate, two 3 second penalties would be assessed.

 

None of these scenarios would really be considered "gaming" as the penalties are so high it would make it useless in any real way to do them.

 

Last, the 4 second "penalty" for those competitors who cannot move and are approved to shoot from the middle box issue -

 

Wow, this has been spanked and spanked and spanked.  And it simply takes some tough love and realistic acceptance of what we are talking about for this situation to be absorbed:  First thing to realize is the USPSA is not in a business that by its very practical existence is meant to cater to everyone.  One simply cannot apply the rules or laws of the outside world to apply here.  There is no FDA that applies to the shooting sports.  Or ANY sport for that matter.  Each competitor must judge for themselves their ability to compete in any sport.  Like any sport, we know what we are getting ourselves into by viewing the sport prior to considering becoming involved.

 

So, here's the real deal - shooting from the center box is NOT an accommodation.  That is where the thinking is of course to start with.  And its due to the language in the rules with use of the word "allow."  A shooter, handicapped in such a way he cannot move from box to box, MUST shoot from the center box.  This is a safety thing more than anything else, minimizing the sharp angles the far plates would be shot from an outside box, including removing a scenario involving someone already hindered physically flirting with the 180 line.  A handicapped shooter may not be approved to shoot from only the left or right box, but only the center box.  This is not an advantage given to them, or even an accommodation.  Its realizing the fact someone not able to move, isn't going to move, and applying an avenue to best handle it.  Then, just as anyone else having not moved, a 4 second penalty is applied.  So many people wrapped around the axel about not enough, too much.  Its exactly the same as anyone else.  People are trying to view it as an accommodation and thinking there should be MORE of an accommodation.  Its NOT an accommodation, its a way of keeping it the same for everyone who chooses a shooting sport to compete in.  There are no accommodations made in USPSA, or 3 Gun, or the NBA, or the NFL, or any other sport.  If you are handicapped, or old, and cannot play a sport the way it was built and intended to be played, maybe its not the sport for you!  Would you expect to be brought on a NFL team and demand they change their rules to accommodate you?  Its because the other stages are all static, I get it.  All but one is accomplishable by someone who can just stand, or sit, or simply remain in one position.  So we argue that the one stage requiring movement is unfair somehow.  That's simply false logic.  As is the idea the rule is any type of accommodation and be made any MORE accommodating.  This is a shooting sport with physical requirements just as any other.  If you cant do them, I'm sorry.  But you don't get to demand everything change for you.  The "penalty" IS just that.  Just like anyone else who doesn't move, a penalty is assessed.  The ONLY accommodation is the removal of the penalties for the first two plates hit from the middle box. 

[xpierrat]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Figured I would duck back in here and check on everyone!  This is actually a really good question.  I had to break out the rules to make sure my thinking was correct.  It was, but I had to double check, so a good conversation.  I read all the responses, and I'm not sure it got correctly or completely explained.

 

1.  First, assuming the shooter is right handed and the left box is the appropriate starting position, the following penalties would apply:  A four second penalty for not moving.  Three second penalties for each of the plates hit from the incorrect box = three 3 second penalties.  ZZT appropriately explained they aren't really considered "misses" except in the language describing a situation where the "mistake" is realized and the plates made up from the correct box.  I think what was really being asked here is if it was a 30 for a missed stop plate due to the language "misses."  No.

 

The next two are moot it the competitor has not been specifically allowed to shoot from the center box upon request and approval involving the MD.  The questions seem odd and not to assume this, but its important to understand because these strings would be null and void because a shooter may not be started in an inappropriate shooting position.  This includes hands in the wrong position, or not high enough, facing the wrong direction, etc, also including incorrect shooting box in showdown or outer limits.  So -

 

2.  If the shooter has been approved to shoot from the center box = no penalties.  If the shooter has not been approved to shoot from the middle box, he may not be started while in the middle box.  Following the logic of the question to the next step, if the shooter starts in appropriate box and moves to middle upon audible tone, shooting all plates from the center = two 3 second penalties.

 

3.  Again, assuming the shooter has been approved to shoot from the middle box, two three second penalties for missed plates.  Possibly one of the things to overcome here, not sure, is Steel Challenge does not have a fail to engage penalty if that was what was also being asked.  And again, if the shooter has not received prior approval to shoot from the middle box, he may not be started in the middle box.  And last, if the shooter starts in the appropriate box, immediately moves to the middle box upon hearing the audible tone and shoots plates 3, 4, and the stop plate, two 3 second penalties would be assessed.

 

None of these scenarios would really be considered "gaming" as the penalties are so high it would make it useless in any real way to do them.

 

Last, the 4 second "penalty" for those competitors who cannot move and are approved to shoot from the middle box issue -

 

Wow, this has been spanked and spanked and spanked.  And it simply takes some tough love and realistic acceptance of what we are talking about for this situation to be absorbed:  First thing to realize is the USPSA is not in a business that by its very practical existence is meant to cater to everyone.  One simply cannot apply the rules or laws of the outside world to apply here.  There is no FDA that applies to the shooting sports.  Or ANY sport for that matter.  Each competitor must judge for themselves their ability to compete in any sport.  Like any sport, we know what we are getting ourselves into by viewing the sport prior to considering becoming involved.

 

So, here's the real deal - shooting from the center box is NOT an accommodation.  That is where the thinking is of course to start with.  And its due to the language in the rules with use of the word "allow."  A shooter, handicapped in such a way he cannot move from box to box, MUST shoot from the center box.  This is a safety thing more than anything else, minimizing the sharp angles the far plates would be shot from an outside box, including removing a scenario involving someone already hindered physically flirting with the 180 line.  A handicapped shooter may not be approved to shoot from only the left or right box, but only the center box.  This is not an advantage given to them, or even an accommodation.  Its realizing the fact someone not able to move, isn't going to move, and applying an avenue to best handle it.  Then, just as anyone else having not moved, a 4 second penalty is applied.  So many people wrapped around the axel about not enough, too much.  Its exactly the same as anyone else.  People are trying to view it as an accommodation and thinking there should be MORE of an accommodation.  Its NOT an accommodation, its a way of keeping it the same for everyone who chooses a shooting sport to compete in.  There are no accommodations made in USPSA, or 3 Gun, or the NBA, or the NFL, or any other sport.  If you are handicapped, or old, and cannot play a sport the way it was built and intended to be played, maybe its not the sport for you!  Would you expect to be brought on a NFL team and demand they change their rules to accommodate you?  Its because the other stages are all static, I get it.  All but one is accomplishable by someone who can just stand, or sit, or simply remain in one position.  So we argue that the one stage requiring movement is unfair somehow.  That's simply false logic.  As is the idea the rule is any type of accommodation and be made any MORE accommodating.  This is a shooting sport with physical requirements just as any other.  If you cant do them, I'm sorry.  But you don't get to demand everything change for you.  The "penalty" IS just that.  Just like anyone else who doesn't move, a penalty is assessed.  The ONLY accommodation is the removal of the penalties for the first two plates hit from the middle box. 

So I guess your solution is to just put old and handicapped shooters out to pasture...

 

I shoot steel because I can "still" be competitive even at 73.... "WITH IN MY SUPER SR CLASS"  I am blessed than I can move well enough to actually often gain time on OL and make up for some stages that I have a off day on but my day will come too where it is just not possible to move well or even safely … we have USPSA, IDPA, 2 gun. 3 gun, action steel and others I guess that I do not even know of that have movement as the basis for every stage other than standards and qualifiers..... SO is it really TOO much to ask to have a competition that does not require movement ??? REALLY ???  I have not shot any rimfire challenge matches "YET" ( and do not even know if they have any movement stages)  but if they do not have movement, continue to grow in popularity and become available locally I just might have to drop out of USPSA and SC so I can still feed my desire to be competitive  when I become to frail for SC   Oh and BTW we already make accommodations in steel challenge for preteen, Jr's ( like they need help LOL ) ladies , seniors, and GASP super seniors so they can all be competitive within their peers...……. I could go on but I'd be wasting my key strokes

 

[Hammer002]

44 minutes ago, xpierrat said:

So I guess your solution is to just put old and handicapped shooters out to pasture...

 

I shoot steel because I can "still" be competitive even at 73.... "WITH IN MY SUPER SR CLASS"  I am blessed than I can move well enough to actually often gain time on OL and make up for some stages that I have a off day on but my day will come too where it is just not possible to move well or even safely … we have USPSA, IDPA, 2 gun. 3 gun, action steel and others I guess that I do not even know of that have movement as the basis for every stage other than standards and qualifiers..... SO is it really TOO much to ask to have a competition that does not require movement ??? REALLY ???  I have not shot any rimfire challenge matches "YET" ( and do not even know if they have any movement stages)  but if they do not have movement, continue to grow in popularity and become available locally I just might have to drop out of USPSA and SC so I can still feed my desire to be competitive  when I become to frail for SC   Oh and BTW we already make accommodations in steel challenge for preteen, Jr's ( like they need help LOL ) ladies , seniors, and GASP super seniors so they can all be competitive within their peers...……. I could go on but I'd be wasting my key strokes

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa there cowboy, lol, don't be projecting your frustration on me.  I am just the messenger of reality.  No one wants to be putting anyone out to pasture or any other cliché of woe.  Geez, man, take a breath, get a grip.  None of this is anyone's OPINION.  Its reality you face and don't like.  I don't go play basketball, knowing what basketball is, and demand the hoop be lowered to me cause I cant jump like the other guys.  No.  I simply don't choose basketball to insist I am going to be competitive at.  You are far older than me, so its surprising to hear your generation talking like the new generations where you feel entitled to be competitive in anything you choose.  You are owed something and everyone should accommodate you or others so we can all get the participation trophy and no one wins and no one loses.  You are, without going all the way, trying to claim bias or discrimination because you or others may not physically be able to do something.  Again, I have no opinion outside of I don't care for someone coming into a sport and demanding it change...for them...so they can be competitive when there aren't.  Is it too much to ask to have a competition that does not require movement???  Seriously??  Really??  Are YOU SERIOUS?  There are MANY.  Why are you demanding a sport change for YOU? Really??  Outer Limits has been around for a very long time, so you knew it was there when you decided to shoot steel challenge.  Now its time to demand a change cause YOU cant win?  I don't understand.  I really don't.  I have nothing against ANYONE coming out to play.  But when you start with the 5 year old, "its not fair," crap, you lose my confidence.

 

Lastly, I am curious, exactly what accommodations are anyone making to any preteens, Jr's, ladies, seniors, so on and so forth??  I know of no accommodations made to anyone?  I believe everyone is competing under the same rules.  Again, I think that word accommodations is a confusing area for you.  There is no accommodation made in applying the four second addition to outer limits for no movement.  Its the same for everyone that doesn't move.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Hammer002

[xpierrat]

I will start with the last.... we are "accommodating the different "age groups" so in reality they can be "competitive" with there own age peers

 

trying to compare SC to the NFL or NBA is about as far off a comparison as I can think of

 

The reality is we have a shooting sport that is perfect for youth and even the disabled except for one stage which was tolerable until the powers to be decided that to many b,c,and d class shooters "might" be able to game the system and changed a reasonable penalty of 3 to a punitive 4 seconds ( the additional 3 seconds is usually 3 to 5 places at a major) .... disabled shooters are not looking for participation trophies but a equal playing field for a chance to be competitive in a shooting sport. No one is asking to change 2 gun , USPSA or any of the many "other shooting sports" where movement is the norm you keep commenting that we choose to shoot SC and we do because it has no movement except one stage and yes OL has been around a long time ( I actually like Flying M better for a movement stage if you know what that stage was )…. they still have to shoot the other 7 stages very well to have a shot at a top 5 finish

 

There are many in our sport who had no problems when they "chose" to start shooting SC but due to any number of circumstances later developed it is either deal with it or quit 

Is it entitled  to want just one shooting sport that a disabled shooter can compete in right along with other shooters? 

 

" Is it too much to ask to have a competition that does not require movement???  Seriously??  Really??  Are YOU SERIOUS?  There are MANY. " 

 just what speed shooting sport is there that requires no movement ?

 

There have been many changes to SC over the years so a change is not unprecedented and there are times a change can be for the good.  I do not think we would lose a single shooter if we were to make OL a non movement stage. I do think we would gain shooters if we did not have movement ,and growing SC and USPSA is I believe a desired thing.

 

and BTW before you think this is about me it is not.... I am debating this for them that can not move,   At last yrs Worlds I had a pretty poor outing but still shot 2nd best super Sr on OL for RFRO      you can find my top 20 M class RFRO in the records with a pretty reasonable recent OL PB  of 12.14           USPSA # A93691   So dropping movement on OL would actually hurt me at this time.  I just think it is a change that should be made for the better of this particular discipline of speed shooting sports. 

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, xpierrat said:

I do not think we would lose a single shooter if we were to make OL a non movement stage. I do think we would gain shooters if we did not have movement ,and growing SC and USPSA is I believe a desired thing.

 

 

I agree with this. Personally, I like movement on stages (why I shoot USPSA), but it seems kinda dumb to hold onto outer limits as the one single solitary stage that requires movement. Movement is not really a factor in steel challenge, so the only real effect of having 1 single movement stage is to make it unfeasible for some people (people who are competitive on all the other stages) to  be competitive in a match. Getting rid of outer limits will have pretty much no effect at all on the people who *can* do the movement on that 1 single stage, but it will make a huge difference to the people who can't.

[Hammer002]

45 minutes ago, xpierrat said:

I will start with the last.... we are "accommodating the different "age groups" so in reality they can be "competitive" with there own age peers

 

trying to compare SC to the NFL or NBA is about as far off a comparison as I can think of

 

26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Getting rid of outer limits will have pretty much no effect at all on the people who *can* do the movement on that 1 single stage, but it will make a huge difference to the people who can't.

 

You both reminded me right here, so simply, your level of understanding and the fact I am out of place here.  Carry on.  lol.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

You both reminded me right here, so simply, your level of understanding and the fact I am out of place here.  Carry on.  lol.

ha. you are fine. I always enjoy discussions with you. 

 

what is out of place tho is 1 solitary movement stage in a sport that is otherwise completely non-movement-related. We have plenty of movement-centric speed-shooting sports.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

ha. you are fine. I always enjoy discussions with you. 

 

what is out of place tho is 1 solitary movement stage in a sport that is otherwise completely non-movement-related. We have plenty of movement-centric speed-shooting sports.

you know what?  Fair enough. You’re right. I just don’t like the entitlement thing. 

[Sigarmsp226]

Guys - I was just looking at Practi-Score and saw where the 2020 Alabama Steel Challenge State Championship in September this year is NOT running OL as one of their courses...I wonder if and why they decided to do this at the State Championship level. It is not because of bay space because the shoot is at CMP in Talladega where the World Speed Shooting Championship is held and has 10 or 11 bays on the main course.....

[EarlKeese]

36 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Guys - I was just looking at Practi-Score and saw where the 2020 Alabama Steel Challenge State Championship in September this year is NOT running OL as one of their courses...I wonder if and why they decided to do this at the State Championship level. It is not because of bay space because the shoot is at CMP in Talladega where the World Speed Shooting Championship is held and has 10 or 11 bays on the main course.....

They said it's because of participant feedback.

[nso123]

57 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Guys - I was just looking at Practi-Score and saw where the 2020 Alabama Steel Challenge State Championship in September this year is NOT running OL as one of their courses...I wonder if and why they decided to do this at the State Championship level. It is not because of bay space because the shoot is at CMP in Talladega where the World Speed Shooting Championship is held and has 10 or 11 bays on the main course.....

They had a few considerations. Responses to a survey showed that folks wanted to shoot a six stage match this year. They also had to appease CMP on COVID stuff by reducing the number of shooters (2 fewer 12 shooter squads per session).  It will be a fast match for sure without OL and SO. 

[Hammer002]

12 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Guys - I was just looking at Practi-Score and saw where the 2020 Alabama Steel Challenge State Championship in September this year is NOT running OL as one of their courses...I wonder if and why they decided to do this at the State Championship level. It is not because of bay space because the shoot is at CMP in Talladega where the World Speed Shooting Championship is held and has 10 or 11 bays on the main course.....

 

11 hours ago, EarlKeese said:

They said it's because of participant feedback.

 

11 hours ago, nso123 said:

They had a few considerations. Responses to a survey showed that folks wanted to shoot a six stage match this year. They also had to appease CMP on COVID stuff by reducing the number of shooters (2 fewer 12 shooter squads per session).  It will be a fast match for sure without OL and SO. 

 

I am calling Shenanigans

[Hammer002]

11 hours ago, nso123 said:

They had a few considerations. Responses to a survey showed that folks wanted to shoot a six stage match this year. They also had to appease CMP on COVID stuff by reducing the number of shooters (2 fewer 12 shooter squads per session).  It will be a fast match for sure without OL and SO. 

 

We will need to watch how this plays out.  There are several concerns.

 

First, the match is two weeks prior to Worlds on the same bays at the same range.  The match was originally to be a level 2 "warm up" match right before worlds.  Only doing 6 stages is a complete disservice to the entire Steel Challenge shooting community who intended to shoot the match for this purpose.

 

Second, the match is completely against the rules: 

 

Appendix F1 - Match Levels

Special Notes:

Tier 2 Matches may elect to run only 6 of the 8 Steel Challenge Stages,

and may omit ONLY Outer Limits and Speed Option,

due to distance limitations.

 

They are omitting Outer Limits and SHOWDOWN. Yes, Showdown!  Not Speed Option and not due to distance limitations.  Its because the "element" down there influencing the match is of the same thinking as some here regarding wanting no movement of any kind for the same reasons.  First, I'll point out to those of you in that boat, you and this group are in the vast great MINORITY on this thinking.  Most of us could care less what stages are present in Steel Challenge, but we practice the ones that ARE to be able to compete in the game we love.  Next, this is a huge disappointment to those who planned on shooting this match as a warm up for worlds two weeks later at the same location.  A complete travesty of decision making due to influence from a small local crowd. 

 

Now, rumors are all over.  I head the survey thing, but also heard those surveyed were part of the influencing group and little to no one else.  The community didn't see any survey, nor did I.  So who was surveyed if it happened?  I have NEVER heard there was any COVID reasoning and it makes no sense anyway.  You can either have the match or you cant have the match and there is no one in a hurry.  Even if lowing squadding to 10 per squad, that makes the match faster and could easily have accommodated all 8 stages.  I do this at my match, and run 12 getting all 8 done in the morning and another flight in the afternoon with no time issues!  Its cause they want to eliminate movement, nothing else.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Hammer002

[nso123]

11 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

We will need to watch how this plays out.  There are several concerns.

 

First, the match is two weeks prior to Worlds on the same bays at the same range.  The match was originally to be a level 2 "warm up" match right before worlds.  Only doing 6 stages is a complete disservice to the entire Steel Challenge shooting community who intended to shoot the match for this purpose.

 

Second, the match is completely against the rules: 

 

Appendix F1 - Match Levels

Special Notes:

Tier 2 Matches may elect to run only 6 of the 8 Steel Challenge Stages,

and may omit ONLY Outer Limits and Speed Option,

due to distance limitations.

 

They are omitting Outer Limits and SHOWDOWN. Yes, Showdown!  Not Speed Option and not due to distance limitations.  Its because the "element" down there influencing the match is of the same thinking as some here regarding wanting no movement of any kind for the same reasons.  First, I'll point out to those of you in that boat, you and this group are in the vast great MINORITY on this thinking.  Most of us could care less what stages are present in Steel Challenge, but we practice the ones that ARE to be able to compete in the game we love.  Next, this is a huge disappointment to those who planned on shooting this match as a warm up for worlds two weeks later at the same location.  A complete travesty of decision making due to influence from a small local crowd. 

 

Now, rumors are all over.  I head the survey thing, but also heard those surveyed were part of the influencing group and little to no one else.  The community didn't see any survey, nor did I.  So who was surveyed if it happened?  I have NEVER heard there was any COVID reasoning and it makes no sense anyway.  You can either have the match or you cant have the match and there is no one in a hurry.  Even if lowing squadding to 10 per squad, that makes the match faster and could easily have accommodated all 8 stages.  I do this at my match, and run 12 getting all 8 done in the morning and another flight in the afternoon with no time issues!  Its cause they want to eliminate movement, nothing else.

They are not leaving Showdown out.  The registration stages are wrong and they didn't want to start changing the squads. I am an RO on Showdown Saturday morning.  The only stages not being shot are OL and SO.  

[Hammer002]

3 minutes ago, nso123 said:

They are not leaving Showdown out.  The registration stages are wrong and they didn't want to start changing the squads. I am an RO on Showdown Saturday morning.  The only stages not being shot are OL and SO.  

 

This is really good news.  Thank you!  They must have been hearing the blowback, cause it was heavily discussed around Area 5 two weeks ago.  Probably were told about the rule.  lol  Thats very good to hear.  Are you working Worlds too?

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Hammer002

[nso123]

29 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

This is really good news.  Thank you!  They must have been hearing the blowback, cause it was heavily discussed around Area 5 two weeks ago.  Probably were told about the rule.  lol  Thats very good to hear.  Are you working Worlds too?

 

It was always going to be OL and SO that were left out. The match had been built in Practiscore with eight stages and the wrong one got eliminated. I think the word had just not made it out about the mistake. 

I am just shooting the Worlds, and am not going to RO.