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Outer Limits - Penalty for shooting from one box


Sigarmsp226

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So to my questions

 

1- Shooter decides to NOT move out of the left box and shoots all five plates from the left box....What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

2 - Shooter starts in the middle box and does not move and shoots all five plates from the center box....What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

3 - Shooter Starts in the middle box and shoots ONLY the three plates that are normally shot from this box (does not move)...What are the penalties (break out if it is considered to be a missed plate or procedural).....

 

Thanks 

 

Mark

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1.  three 3 second miss penalties per string, no procedurals. 7.3.2

 

2.  4 second penalty per string. 7.4.1

 

3.  two 3 second miss penalties, per string, no procedurals.

Edited by zzt
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You get a 3 second penalty each for the three targets you engaged from the one box. No DQ. No procedural. The sky isn't falling. Have fun.

 

Handicapped people usually shoot all five targets from the center box. They get one penalty each for four of the targets.

Edited by Styro
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37 minutes ago, Styro said:

Handicapped people usually shoot all five targets from the center box. They get one penalty each for four of the targets.

 

No.  If no movement due to handicap is approved by the RM, a 4 second penalty is applied per string.  No other penalties apply, except for misses.

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8 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

No.  If no movement due to handicap is approved by the RM, a 4 second penalty is applied per string.  No other penalties apply, except for misses.

I know the MD has final say in that. Yes, you are correct. I didn't write it correctly. 

Edited by Styro
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ZZT - Thank you Sir - I actually read a 2018/2019 thread where Zack, you, and several others were discussing these rules but as I read that thread I becamce confused....Thank you for taking time to resond again to my questions. Greatly appreciate your help...Mark

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1 hour ago, zzt said:

1.  three 3 second miss penalties per string, no procedurals. 7.3.2

 

 

Wouldn't this be a 30 for failure to hit the stop plate?

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2 hours ago, RickT said:

Wouldn't this be a 30 for failure to hit the stop plate?

Same thought I was having, if those 3 plates are misses and one of them is the stop plate seems like a time of 30 is appropriate.

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12 hours ago, RickT said:

Wouldn't this be a 30 for failure to hit the stop plate?

 

Not unless the stop plate was actually missed.  If so, the 'miss stop plate' box is checked.  Otherwise 7.3.2 assumes the stop plate was hit from the wrong box, so a 3 second miss penalty is applied.  I don't know why it is called a 'miss' penalty in the regs, but it may have something to do with the 'double jeopardy' phrasing in subsequent paragraphs.

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18 hours ago, Gregg K said:

The proper procedure wasn't followed so one would think a procedural would be issued.

 

It would have been a little clearer IMO.  However, the next rules on 'double jeopardy' specifically state that no procedurals are applied, because they were already scored as misses.

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12 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

It would have been a little clearer IMO.  However, the next rules on 'double jeopardy' specifically state that no procedurals are applied, because they were already scored as misses.

So the stop plate is scored as a miss but it's not scored as a miss on a stop plate, that's pretty clear. 🙄

I never thought that something as simple to score as Steel Challenge could be made so complicated. Thankfully is usually pretty simple and if it gets hard you're not winning anything anyway. 😀

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The 4 second penalty for shooting from the center box is just plain vindictive, unjustly punitive and so very unfair to a handicapped shooter  …. glad I can still get from box to box

 

 

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11 minutes ago, xpierrat said:

The 4 second penalty for shooting from the center box is just plain vindictive, unjustly punitive and so very unfair to a handicapped shooter  …. glad I can still get from box to box

 

When we were discussing this penalty on this forum in 2018, everyone agreed two seconds was unfair.  Several shooters said they would take the 2 second penalty rather than move.  Three seconds was considered okay at the time.  In 2019 while debating the coming rule change, the argument was 3 or 4 seconds.  I actually timed a bunch of shooters on OL, and the 3 second penalty would have helped many of them.  I came down on the 4 second side because I shot a bunch of OL from the center box only and was astonished at how much quicker my times were.  Firing the second shot, then moving to the center box, landing and acquiring a good sight picture in 3 seconds is a feat.

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Let's not think it's only a 4 second penalty.  It's 12 seconds and that is outrageous.  I shoot everything from the center because I'm in a wheelchair.  I only shoot for myself so I don't mind the penalty but I'm close to my old shooting friends that are not handicapped.  Sometimes I still beat them so the 12 seconds is bad but not too bad to overcome.

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Well I do not intend to beat this dead horse for long...  the biggest problem ( out of several on this subject ) is it is the same penalty no matter what division and there is a huge difference in RFRO and ISR as a example....  It is certainly possible for even a mid range M class RFRO shooter to shoot 2 plates and move to the center box in 3 seconds leaving him/her 1.5 seconds for the last three plates  …. with a 3 second penalty I would like to see  any shooter to do all 5 plates from the center box in 1.5 seconds …. the very few that might be able to accomplish this are shooting OL in the mid 3 second range so would never benefit from a 3 second penalty      Now I will agree some shooters taking the 3 and shooting from center would give some that are terrible at OL a better time BUT they would NEVER match their class peers who have worked to solve OL 

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I also think 4 sec per string is excessive for disabled shooter...a normal 3 sec procedural sounds fair but adding an extra second because someone is disabled isn't. It almost seems like you are receiving a little extra because of your condition... I believe one can't choose to shoot from the center box and take the penalty, but that you should have a physical condition that is pretty obvious. A 3 sec penalty wouldn't aid a B class or higher class shooter, it might aid a C or D class shooter a little, but they still have 7 other stages to complete so I don't think it would be an advantage.

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I've been trying to get the detailed rationale through my Area 1 rep.  The claim made at the BOD meeting was that 80% of "shooters" would benefit by taking a three second penalty. I asked for a copy of the analysis, but nothing has been forthcoming.  When you look at the shift toward rimfire optics, PCCO and CO I find it hard to believe the 80% assertion.  From what I've seen it's pretty common, particularly for rimfire shooters, to engage the second rectangle before their trail foot has hit the ground in the center box. Sure, an entry-level shooter would benefit from a three second penalty, but who cares.  The only thing accomplished by the change in penalty was to take judgement out of the hands of the MD (or RO).  How many folks were cheating under the old approach?

 

The other response I've heard is "you've got 7 other stages".  I do believe the organization owes disabled shooters a better explanation.

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I'm a high B shooter.  From the center box I can hit the 5 OL targets in 2.25 to 2.5 seconds in RFPO.  Since I'm old and cannot move as quickly as some, my best time is 15.56 seconds.  Assuming my three best runs totaled 6.75 seconds, 4 second penalties would give me a 18.75 second score.  Three second penalties would give me a 15.75 second score, a slight improvement.

 

GM, M and A shooters would be handicapped by a 3 second penalty.  B and lower would be helped.  So I find the 80% statement to be credible.  There are waaay more B and under shooters than A or above.

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ZZT the only problem with taking the penalty to game the system is you will never be able to improve and be above a B shooter.... Your example with the 3 second puts you right where you are with a 15.75 to you PB of 15.56   and that's assuming a 2.25 average on at least three strings from center which I think most shooters would have a hard time duplicating....    My wife is a B RFRO shooter at age 70 ( she will kill me for that one ) with very bad knees, 4 knee surgeries so far and she walks from box to box pretty gingerly because she in constant fear of tweaking a knee and going down...  even so...  she now routinely shoots mid 5's and has a peak time of 15.57 for OL    My times a year ago were mid 15's with a new peak of 13.47 set at the worlds of all places... but then my times went back to mid 15's till I figured out why... my current peak is a 12.14 set in Feb of this year

 

I think the key to OL is not how fast you move from box a to b but how smooth...  I realized that the reason I did so well ( for me ) at the worlds  was a conservative approach in the speed of my movement which allowed me to break my 3rd shot faster....  once I later realized this I really started working on OL and now I pretty much am a consistent hi 12 to low 13 and am seeing some honest high 3 second times in practice which I hope to soon duplicate in a match. 

 

I convinced her that starting to move on the 2nd shot and breaking the third shot as her foot hit the box and the other one came off the ground really closed the difference in her times for OL and her competition level because they were charging into the box and then taking a lot of time getting on target and breaking the 3rd shot ….

 

Right after one of her surgeries she shot from the center box and shot mid 3's to low 4's..... with penalty that was 12 in penalty and  11.25 in time for a 23.25 stage and ZERO chance to place well in that match...even with a 3 second  it would be a 20.25.....   I think her times of 3.5 to 4.0 are more representative of what the avg shooter can do from the center box.... considering the distance of the plates in OL I think consistent 2 second times would only be accomplished by the upper few BTW ... 

 

Now top GM shooters break the first two shots faster and make that a to b probably a half of a second faster than this old man, transition faster on the last 3 and don't miss getting those low 3 second times that we all say can't be done.  :)

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11 hours ago, xpierrat said:

ZZT the only problem with taking the penalty to game the system is you will never be able to improve and be above a B shooter.

 

I'm 72 and have foot and ankle problems that lead me to move as gingerly as your wife.  OL is THE reason I'm not A.  Even though maybe 7 out of 10 runs I would gain by taking the penalty, I never will.  At least not until I become so decrepit I need a cane to help me walk.  IMO, taking the penalty to improve your times is cheating.  Maybe not according to the rules, but certainly the spirit of the game.

 

You are absolutely right that charging into the box and taking more time to set up is not the way to go.  For some reason I can do this better with pistols.  My right foot hits the box with the gun up and aimed at #5.  I get the first shot off, and sometimes the second before my left foot touches.  For some reason, probably lack of experience, I'm not as good with rifles.  I've only shot OL twice with a PCC, so I'll have to learn how to control the gun better while moving. 

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Yep it is those that really can not move from box to box that I feel sorry for in the sense the 4 second penalty is just so unfair... cane, crutch, even wheel chair use are just so unfairly penalized under the current rule .  It is a no win stage with all of the complexities affecting what is a just and fair penalty.....  I don't know about you but I am about ready for a Distinguished Super Senior class   LOL  

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3 hours ago, xpierrat said:

Yep it is those that really can not move from box to box that I feel sorry for in the sense the 4 second penalty is just so unfair... cane, crutch, even wheel chair use are just so unfairly penalized under the current rule

 

I know, but until the OL rules are clarified or changed there is the gaming issue.  I would clarify the rule to say that ONLY an MD approved handicapped shooter can shoot all targets from the center box with only one procedural penalty per string.  And they should be given a token so they can show the RO they were approved.  If that were the case, I'd be fine going back to 3 seconds, but not 2.  Then anyone not MD approved who elects not to move suffers the miss penalties.  So they would be penalized a minimum of 6 and a max of 9 seconds per string.  That would cure the gaming issue in a hurry.

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Well there will always be the ones trying to game the game.... but they are only fooling themselves   The problem they found with the MD making the call is proving a disability …. some are obvious wheel chair etc...  

 

several years ago at the Fla State match I severely pulled a groin muscle practicing OL the day before the match.... I was in so much pain I could hardly walk... rented a golf cart to get around....  forget about even trying to move between boxes... so I asked for and got the 3 second penalty and I was fine with that... there was a shooter that used crutches to get around and he also asked for and received the penalty …. apparently he complained that it was too much and so the MD made his a 2 second  …. there was one other shooter granted the penalty and when he found out about the one guy getting two …. then insisted he should also only get two.... well the MD then made all of us a 2 second penalty....   that made my OL time the fastest ever.... LOL It took me almost a year to beat that time  

 

so yes 2 is too short 3 is okay   and that is just one example of why OL and its rules are such a mess.... IMHO there are very few that could even take 3 and shoot the stage fast enough to really gain much if any advantage except maybe some mid B and lower classes and they will stay in those classes until they learn to properly shoot OL

 

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