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LTD and PCCO, Same Target Sequence?


RickT
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Full Discloser: I'm B in both so nuances don't make a big difference, but for those shooting center fire handgun and PCC do you gravitate toward shooting both using the same sequence or just pick what works best for each gun?  Not looking for stage specifics, just a general philosophy.  I'm a bit torn with the PCC as I feel I'm quicker going left-to-right, but going right-to-left my left eye's visual field is unobstructed.   I also feel quicker left to right with the PCC, but might be the reverse with the handgun (a 9mm 1911).

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I agree with Stick with some minor exceptions. I generally shoot left to right with PCC except for Speed Option, and I shoot it right to left.  With a pistol, I shoot Speed Option starting with plate 3 instead of the far right number 4. Getting a fast first hit helps me. So, the simple answer is I mostly shoot it the same. The sequence part is where the great Ford versus Chevrolet debate will come up. 

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I don't shoot PPC but shoot RFPO/RFRO and CO.  I've found that when starting from low ready for rimfire, I'll sometimes shoot a different order than CO, since in CO I can orient myself to the first target whereas with the rimfires I have to aim at the flag. 

 

I've also noticed that when aiming at the flag and bringing the rifle to my cheek, I'm generally faster when starting on a left side target vs. right.  It feels more natural to shoulder this way than to bring the rifle up and under your chin when moving it to a right side target.  You kind of have to loop it beneath your chin rather than bringing it to your cheek in an straight line, and it adds a consistent tenth of a second or so for me.

 

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Basically, as a right handed shooter I go Left to Right if I have to point at the flag.  For centerfire pistols I shoot the same order, so I don't get mixed up.  It's easier that way, because all the clubs I shoot at let you shoot two guns in the match.

Edited by zzt
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There is a big difference between shooting a rifle and drawing from a holster in both sequence and stance for many shooters... one needs to figure out what works best for you on each stage as far as how you stand , where you stand in the box, and which sequence you shoot best.... BTW it often will change as you develop your skills... Also there are sequences that may be faster but are higher risk if you miss a plate... example Accelerator shooting left to right  is the way many shoot it 1, 2, 4 ( transition from big plate to big plate ) then back to 3 and stop... problem is plate 3 is a often missed plate and if you are quick in transition ( as you should be ) you are on the stop before your brain tells you " you missed 3 dummy "   WAM! 3 second missed plate :)   Ain't this game fun LOL

Edited by xpierrat
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  • 5 weeks later...

what gun you shoot it irrelevant to your competition strategy (ie - stage shooting order).  The items you mention as rationale for using different shoot order are easily over come with training.  you don't need to change shooting order, you need to up your training

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 8:34 PM, xpierrat said:

There is a big difference between shooting a rifle and drawing from a holster in both sequence and stance for many shooters... one needs to figure out what works best for you on each stage as far as how you stand , where you stand in the box, and which sequence you shoot best.... BTW it often will change as you develop your skills... Also there are sequences that may be faster but are higher risk if you miss a plate... example Accelerator shooting left to right  is the way many shoot it 1, 2, 4 ( transition from big plate to big plate ) then back to 3 and stop... problem is plate 3 is a often missed plate and if you are quick in transition ( as you should be ) you are on the stop before your brain tells you " you missed 3 dummy "   WAM! 3 second missed plate :)   Ain't this game fun LOL

 

I agree with this.  You have to shoot what works for you.  What works for you may be different depending on the gun.  As you progress, the patterns may change as to what works for YOU.  Some of them are kinda set in stone as to what works.  Others are open to different patterns that get the same results, its just a comfortability factor.  Same as with any particular gun.  You have to go with what you feel at this stage of your progression.

 

There are physical considerations as well.  For instance, lets look at one everyone likes and there are several working patterns - Smoke and Hope.  Lets assume our shooter is right handed.  When drawing from a holster, on his right side, is it faster/more efficient to come straight out to a plate on the right, or across the body to a plate on the left?  Physically, the obvious answer would be a plate to the right, however people will debate the opposite because they feel the last two plates and the stop plate are better shot last on the right.  Preference.  But most will say draw to the side your gun is on.  Max Michel has the record drawing to plate 3 then 4, 1, 2, stop.  Drawing to plate 3 is the most direct from the holster.  Now the same stage with a rifle.  The correct way to shoot a rifle is to aim the rifle at the first plate intended to shoot, leave your eyes and head in place, and move the rifle to point at the aiming cone.  A right handed shooter must bring the rifle across the bottom of their chin to get a cheek weld if looking to the right.  Where, if looking to the left, the rifle comes directly from the position pointing at the cone to the right cheek.  A fast gun transition for a fast first shot.  So, with this information, shooting centerfire, to adopt the techniques used to get the world record times, a shooter would draw a centerfire gun to plate 3 and start a rifle on plate 2.  At the end of the day, its about what YOU can do.  Be careful about the above information about Accelerator.  The pattern mentioned is the only way to shoot the stage and be competitive.  Granted, it can be shot in ANY order, but to be competitive, its 1, 2, 4, 3, Stop.  Yes, consideration should be given to not missing 3 before the stop, but that's NO reason to shoot it a less efficient/slower way.

 

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 8:09 AM, Nimitz said:

what gun you shoot it irrelevant to your competition strategy (ie - stage shooting order).  The items you mention as rationale for using different shoot order are easily over come with training.  you don't need to change shooting order, you need to up your training

 

I simply could not disagree with this more.  Shoot what is working for you at your current skill level.  Again, some of the stages are set in stone, others aren't.  And there are differences between guns, even if its just mentally.  This thinking will box you in to something you may not be ready for, or doesn't work for you yet.  I can tell you how to best shoot each stage based on my experience and how the world records are obtained.  That doesn't mean we may be ready to shoot those patterns, and especially not with every gun.  Train, yes.  EVERYTHING is relevant to your competition strategy because the mental game is the most relevant part of your competition strategy.  And the mental game is based on past successes.  You may not like how Max MIchel shoots Smoke and Hope, or you may not be ready to do that.  Maybe 1,2,3,4,Stop is working for you this year.  Stick with it.  Your shooting traits are not to be "overcome,"  they are meant to be realized, accepted at current moments in time allowing you to focus on the moment when you shoot rather than any goal.  Your traits will evolve as they need to.  Your current level of skill never needs to be "overcome" or dismissed as incorrect.  Do what you do well today.  When you are ready, a new patch may present itself.  Work with a coach.  Work with a partner.  Above all, work with the timer.  Different patterns are absolutely relevant on some stages.  Less on some others.  When you learn that, you will know that.  I don't know a single thing I haven't learned yet.

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  • 1 month later...

The time to try out different sequences is in practice.  A wise man (and a real good steel challenge shooter) told me  "the clock does not lie"   I have changed things around quite a bit over the years.  I will work on a new sequence in practice and if the timer is telling me it is working I will continue shooting the stage that way.

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