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As I see it:

 

Glock has the LEO business sewn up and it's not about to change.  Add to that, in my experience historically LEO armorers (along with city Commissions and their legal team) do not like 1911 platforms. That scary hammer back freaks them out. 

 

Staccato still has the "XL" which for better or worse may help them dump reliability perceptions (if the XL is better) with the 2011

 

Name is nearly everything in business, from Q-tips to Drano, brand name is guarded and defended. Sometimes re-branding works (Datsun to Nissan) sometimes the name destroys you like Ayds diet pills died when AIDS came on the scene. Having a company name that people have to look up whether it has two C's or two T's or both two C's AND two T's may have been a poor choice of name.

 

For my part, I think the name Tanfo and CZ on the slide may just have received a boost in sales. 🙂

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1 hour ago, usmc1974 said:

Glock, here before STI, and still going strong. as Robin Williams once said " oh I know I'm going straight to hell for this one " lol

 ok i will fix this:

 

with properly adjusted extractor /ejector 2011/1911  it's the most reliable gun that i know. more than any  CLOCK 😀.

 

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9 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

I'm curious as to how many federal, state and local agencies authorize these for duty use.  I thought I saw a number somewhere, but can't find it.  Most around here don't allow a single action of any type unless you're SWAT or some other specialized role.  I'm sure it's different in other parts of the country and various federal agencies.

Lots of agencies in Texas allow a 1911 style duty gun.  Most of your 100+ man Departments issue guns and the majority of those won't be 1911.  It's the smaller, rural agencies that let cops buy and carry what they want, within reason.  Rangers, Tarrant County SO, Parker County SO, Palo Pinto SO, Hurst PD and Bedford PD are some of the agencies around here that allow a 1911.  Bedford and Hurst issue Kimbers.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, yigal said:

 ok i will fix this:

 

with properly adjusted extractor /ejector 2011/1911  it's the most reliable gun that i know. more than any  CLOCK 😀.

 

According to all FBI and ATF statistic  70% of the American law enforcement carry Glock 22's. I don't know if this includes  Department of Corrections and private security Just a thought.😳

Edited by usmc1974
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 I would think they had to do this - or something like it, to survive. Their terrible QC over the last several years must have cost them a fortune in warranty repairs.  It didn't do their reputation much good either, as evidenced by this thread. They discontinued all of their competition guns, and I've not seen one of their new models at any matches. Hopefully they improve the QC and have success in this new market. I don't wish failure on any american firearm company. I'm not a law enforcement officer, but I have a hard time seeing what the appeal would be for carrying a 2lb steel gun  cocked and locked and steel mags that weighs 2x as much and cost 3x as much as a glock or M&P or 2x as the sig -  but if its working for them, rock on. But I do hope they've fixed the QC issues, because if that's the market they are going after, there's a lot more depending on that gun working 100% of the time than winning a stage.

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25 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

According to all FBI and ATF statistic  70% of the American law enforcement carry Glock 22's. I don't know if this includes  Department of Corrections and private security Just a thought.😳

The agencies always want cheap equipment. If they had a generous budget they would buy a real gun.😉😀

Glock has proven to be simple and good  design  . cheap maintenance with a longer service life  than his other competitors.

Their choice was right. Personally I would choose the  Glock 17th and not   CLOCK😉

 

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31 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

According to all FBI and ATF statistic  70% of the American law enforcement carry Glock 22's. I don't know if this includes  Department of Corrections and private security Just a thought.😳

It's actually been around 67% for a long time, and thanks to the FBI most of those are now a 9mm varient.

That's a staggering percentage. What other product commands that level of market share? Not even Coca-Cola.

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44 minutes ago, yigal said:

The agencies always want cheap equipment. If they had a generous budget they would buy a real gun.😉😀

Glock has proven to be simple and good  design  . cheap maintenance with a longer service life  than his other competitors.

Their choice was right. Personally I would choose the  Glock 17th and not   CLOCK😉

 

Personally, I don't know how many Glocks I have had maybe 20 or 30, and every one of them I could take out of the box and put a thousand rounds without any expensive gun work, or any special tuning of gun or magazine. I could also hit a IPSC target at 50 yards every time. That is good enough for me.

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I'm not a Glock fan.  I've had probably a dozen or more and sold every one because I just don't care for them (grip angle, etc.).  But you can't deny it's a good, reliable product at a reasonable price.  As for them having a huge share of the LEO market, that's because they came out with an innovative product at a time when most were still carrying revolvers.  They also offered very aggressive discounts and had programs where they'd buy back the entire department inventory and replace them with new guns for cheap, then sell the used ones to wholesalers.  That's why places like CDNN and others always had lots of used Glocks for sale.  Good product at a reasonable price plus good sales and marketing equals good market share.

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Well all t h e Glock talk makes me want to hurl lol.

 

BUt I think it brings a certain point.  Glock/S&W/Springfield and now CZ/SIG have the Tupperwear market sewn up.  Market is saturated.  Tons of good options in the $500 range. I can;t remember which STI rep told me that had a "Glock Killer" with the Duo2 but that lol'd me pretty hard.   I'm an M&P man myself, but I know Glocks run. $500 vs $2000. NO F N WAY.  No gun is $1500 better for duty use. WE may chase triggers and speed but in Value, Glock got their first.  Best you can do is join or copy them.

 

For better or worse 1911 Market is pretty well Saturated as well from base to high end.

 

But the "Timmy" market...well now thats another thing.  These are guys who pay 3k for the Knights Armament/Noveske ARs and 5-6k for their 308s.  For a long time they have been Glock guys, but if you could convince them to drop the big cash on some product they'll bite (see wilson combat, sorry gimme a cheap springer/colt any day).  Seems like Staccatto/STI is making their play.  The big mistake is dropping the Competition Market that sits  in between Tupperwear at $500 and the High End Timmy Market at 3K.  For a long time They milked that market pretty hard. But for me its a tough sell that an STI is somehow $1000 improvement on a Rock Island (Edge vs. High Cap) and its a no sell at $2400 or same price and semi-custom.  But STI commanded the market, had the accessories and Para couldn't produce a wide-body to save their soul.  Rock Island doesn't have name/brand recog so STI could coast. 

 

Now they have thrown a big chunk of their market share for someone like BUL to go snap the crap outta that 1500-2k market.  I'm not saying it is a guarantee. But they are definitely vulnerable and this move of kicking competition models to the curb makes them more vulnerable--Maybe their play in the timmy market pays off--but it does seem very short sighted to rain on your current main customer base when they haven't exactly been knocking it out of the park lately.

 

Not to mention that the BUL version of the Stacatto P is 25% less.

 

/Old cranky and abused by Tactical Timmies as a youth.

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3 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Personally, I don't know how many Glocks I have had maybe 20 or 30, and every one of them I could take out of the box and put a thousand rounds without any expensive gun work, or any special tuning of gun or magazine. I could also hit a IPSC target at 50 yards every time. That is good enough for me.

 

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

I'm not a Glock fan.  I've had probably a dozen or more and sold every one because I just don't care for them (grip angle, etc.).  But you can't deny it's a good, reliable product at a reasonable price.  As for them having a huge share of the LEO market, that's because they came out with an innovative product at a time when most were still carrying revolvers.  They also offered very aggressive discounts and had programs where they'd buy back the entire department inventory and replace them with new guns for cheap, then sell the used ones to wholesalers.  That's why places like CDNN and others always had lots of used Glocks for sale.  Good product at a reasonable price plus good sales and marketing equals good market share.

 

 

+1000000 Completely agree. Like them or hate them, Glocks are nothing save reliable. They flat out work. Clean, dirty, neglected. Simple point and shoot reliability. The price is the cherry on the sundae. Simplicity and reliability are what LEOs want. Period. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, yigal said:

15k .good timing for 1911 platform .

with properly adjusted extractor /ejector 2011/1911  it's the most reliable gun that i know. more than any glock.

 

 

You have to be joking? Especially with the 2011? Most reliable gun you know? Time to meet more guns. The ftf magazine issues alone render the 2011 suspect at best. Not something you want to deal with in the middle of a firefight. I'll take a Glock everyday and twice on Sunday. 

 

There will always be the 2-3 "shootists" on the PD or in SO teams that prefer to rock their 1911/2011 cocked/locked... but for the everyday LEO... Glock is much safer choice. 

Edited by 9X19mm
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14 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

I'm the first to admit I don't understand big business, but it seems it would have been better to copy the car companies and have different "badges" to cater to different markets.  Leave the STI line to competition (it got them where they are), and establish a new brand (Stacatto) to cater to a different market.  Think Ford - Mercury, Chevrolet, Buick, Toyota - Lexus.

 

That way you would be following Marketing theory and growing, but no abandoning your base.

 

In my opinion.

 

 

 

Unfortunately recent experience would result in the STI line equating to the Edsel, rather than a Corvette.  I don't understand the name choice, "STACCATO" sounds more like a stutter, which doesn't inspire my confidence.  I guess it is better than "Bang Bang", but I do like "Pew Pew".  Reading the announcement, I threw up in my mouth a little bit when I read "Chief Experience Officer" really? 

 

Nolan

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22 minutes ago, 9X19mm said:

 

 

You have to be joking? Especially with the 2011? Most reliable gun you know? Time to meet more guns. The ftf magazine issues alone render the 2011 suspect at best. Not something you want to deal with in the middle of a firefight. I'll take a Glock everyday and twice on Sunday. 

 

There will always be the 2-3 "shootists" on the PD or in SO teams that prefer to rock their 1911/2011 cocked/locked... but for the everyday LEO... Glock is much safer choice. 

i don't use STI mags and guns .  u are right   about this problem .😀 

i use BUL 2011 with mags that reliable without any tuning more than  cz  mags .

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Posted (edited)

I think the company formerly called STI is riding the "John Wick" wave. I have a Marauder (9mm) and an Edge (40) still, but they are likely going to go to another home at some point. There has been a Staccato XL (9mm) sitting on the shelf at a local gun shop for over two months (right next to a Staccato P in 9mm). The XL has a better trigger and slide fit, but, as noted by several posters above, $3500 would buy a steel gripped semi-custom gun and few USPSA shooters are going to spend $3500 for a Limited Minor gun.

 

I lost faith in STI when the first batch of the new gen magazines came out. Many would not go to slide lock  because of the follower. Supposedly you could send followers in for replacement, but the STI service guy I dealt with made me take pictures and email them to him. Then he wanted pictures of the followers out of the magazine tube. Then he wanted a different camera angle . . . That was enough for me.

 

My Marauder has a better trigger than the Staccato XL and I got it for just under $2150 (normally $2200). The XL has nothing over the Marauder unless you like slide cuts.

 

The few STI TTI "John WIck" guns and one other Staccato XL that have sold by the local gun shop went to "Tactical" guys that do not shoot competition.

The Staccato XL is not worth $3500.

 

Edited by Steppenwolf
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The Timmy market is perfect if you are swamped with warrantee work from competitors that want to buy the cheapest model you make and run it into the ground then send it in for you to fix free.

 

Timmies dudes don't shoot 5K a year, and it's mostly all new factory instead of 25K of mangy overpressure reloads and they will throw down for Zev-like cuts and Deltapoints and John Woo whatnot.

 

Makes all kinds of sense if the Total Addressable Timmy Market is big enough.

 

Plus USPSA has pretty much turned it's back on STI as well-- Production, PCC & Carry Optics?  None of the new growth divisions have a place for STIs.

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17 hours ago, yigal said:

with properly adjusted extractor /ejector 2011/1911  it's the most reliable gun that i know. more than any glock.

 

:roflol:

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32 minutes ago, ColtCustomComp said:

Which would I take into Combat?

The Glock 24 or The Colt 1911

The Glock of course

 

P5090152 - Small.JPG

G24Ammo.JPG

You are preparing for World War 3?😉

both of them competition guns.not best choice for carry or military use.

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2 hours ago, yigal said:

You are preparing for World War 3?😉

both of them competition guns.not best choice for carry or military use.

OK Then I'll Play..

What would be the BEST CHOICE for CARRY or MILITARY USE??

Kinda funny that I have a couple MILITARY/LEO ONLY Magazines for the G24 in my stash..

I'd also guess they where for a Glock 22/35..

 

I have carried the G24 on accession but so far not the Custom Shop Colt 1911

WWIII NO!! I'd have a rifle for that..

 

Here's a pic after the rear sight install..

Gary/CCC

ColtCustomComp.JPG

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OK Then.. You're a 9mm guy..

I sold my Glock 17L & 17 RTF2

Still have a G26Gen4 & a S&W M&P Shield 2.0 9mm in 9mm

 

Thought about a SIG Sauer P365

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I don't like short guns. Most people who are not skilled will be difficult to control them.

i hope sig solved all theirs  problems with their guns .😉

i prefer g17  but with few changes. tried to produce one that stronger and better few years ago but 

The company I was a technical  adviser  at the last minute decided not to do this changes . Two years after that, generation 5 came .

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