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2 hours ago, konkapot said:

There's "marketing" and then there is "lying." One of the biggest LE gun purchases ever is coming up for CBP, and it ain't gonna be a STI/Stacatto, and like someone posted early it will be largely price based. 

No doubt.   I work on the border with those guys pretty frequently and they are ready to get the new Glocks!!

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11 hours ago, ck1 said:

 Awesome. Don't get me wrong, I’m an STI fan and own several...

 

I just don’t think they should be burying their competition roots and trying to turn all “Tactical” is all... I don’t think it’s going to work for them, but if they’re selling guns, they’re selling guns...

Maybe somone with the real reason will chime in but all the timmies and operators I know hate the whole competition scene and think competition shooters are dumb. Every time they see or hear the words competition shooting or match they run away and want nothing to do with it. 

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32 minutes ago, louu said:

Maybe somone with the real reason will chime in but all the timmies and operators I know hate the whole competition scene and think competition shooters are dumb. Every time they see or hear the words competition shooting or match they run away and want nothing to do with it. 

Is that because they get their butt handed to them by almost every 22 year old competitor out there as well as almost every 60 year old competitor?  They don't want nothing to do with competition shooting because they don't train/shoot enough to be competitive!

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14 hours ago, ck1 said:


Yeah, the competition market is probably pretty small...

 

But, they can spend all they can afford and more, do all the “hero” marketing they want, hire every ex-mil trainer with a beard they can get their hands on, and still, the list of real-world LE agencies who’ll allow the adoption of a single-action 2011 for duty use is still probably smaller... There is no real LE/Tactical market for a 2011 gun, it’s a fantasy.

 

STI/Staccato need to put all that fast-roping and door-kicking movie BS out of their minds... Most larger agencies have SOP’s that don’t even trust their officers to clear their weapons/chambers before locking up their guns in lock boxes before entering secure facilities in order to avoid ND’s, and then some of these morons show up to qual and catch days off because they’ve been riding with an empty chamber for 6 months... It’s sad, but giving the average officer a firearm is more of a liability nightmare for an agency more than anything else...this is with stone simple DAO striker-guns, a 1911-based gun with a nice trigger that needs maintenance would be like trading in all the Ford Taurus units that get crashed for Porsche 911’s...


Giving 15% off to LEO’s/First Responders might sell them a few guns here and there. But, whom ever in their company that convinced them that there are big agency contracts out there, besides a few little ones like the Texas Rangers and a tiny handful of specialty units like that who can both clear the red tape and have the budget to even consider them, is dreaming.

 I just took a quick look at the sight. 3 categories - Duty, Competition, and THE WORLDS BEST CONCEALED CARRY!
I don't know, 3400 for a Limited-40 or a little more for a built-in comp and add my own dot.  Wait! I do know. No. 
For that kind of money there are some well established products with a documented history. 
As others have mentioned I'm not sure what agencies are going to even go into negotiation. Seems like they'd go bankrupt on the discounts they'd be required to make. Oh, wait.

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4 hours ago, louu said:

Maybe somone with the real reason will chime in but all the timmies and operators I know hate the whole competition scene and think competition shooters are dumb. Every time they see or hear the words competition shooting or match they run away and want nothing to do with it. 

 

I've already seen a few Timmies posting on stuff on social media with their new STIs Staccatos along with words to the effect of "I never liked 2011s before, because they were gamer guns, and I'm not a gamer, but these new ones are WAY more tactical, so they're awesome!" Much eye-rolling ensued.

 

But that does mean that the rebranding/refocusing/whatever is getting at least some traction. I guess they're trying to posture themselves as the high-end tactical/duty option, not unlike the market segment that HK has filled for a while. Or at least, like HK without any major government contracts, so... yeah. Probably not great. What I don't get is that for as long as I've been aware of and following them, they've never purposefully excluded the tactical/duty market before. Even though they had a fair number of guns that were specifically oriented towards competition, they had some no-frills options that were clearly marketed as duty guns. They probably didn't net too many sales with those... but they're also still probably not going to get any more contract sales for reasons that others have already discussed at length.

 

In other words, the market for 2011s has generally been:

  1. The few small units/agencies that will benefit from better performance in a sidearm and will tolerate the increased maintenance requirements
  2. High-speed, low-drag types that want to LARP as members of said units/agencies
  3. Competition shooters

 

With a purposeful exclusion of the competition space, they're basically writing off market segment #3 in an attempt to substantially expand market segment #2, while market segment #1 will probably stay more or less flat. Might not be the best business decision in history, but what do I know?

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Ugh...what a dumb name they are now calling themselves. I am not visually attracted to a firearm with that name, nor would I want that name tattooed on my gun. Especially for the price they sell their guns for.

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Well, I'll add my two cents.  I'm not in any type of law enforcement.  I love single action guns.  I'd never owned a double action until I drew one from the prize table last fall.  That being said, there is absolutely no way on earth I'd carry a loaded 2011 and two spare mags on my belt all day long.  That is especially true if it was made by STI.  Way too heavy and uncomfortable, and in the case of STI, untrustworthy..  I also would not need the capacity.  Geez!  60 rounds!  I'd rather have a light weight, reliable plastic gun with 10-12 round mags.

 

I cringe when I hear reports of a Police shootout with 141 shots fired and only four hits.  Geez, throwing rocks would be equally effective.  What kind of training did these four or five (I forget which) get, and why were they trusted with guns they didn't know how to use.  I don't want to hear about danger and fear and adrenaline.  I've been in combat, some close enough that I could hit the enemy instead of shoot him.  That's not an excuse.  And don't tell me it was suppressive fire.  What is unconscionable is not that they missed a shot or two.  They missed 137 times.  Who knows who or what they might have hit.

 

The prize I drew was an XD 9mm 4" pistol.  It had a horrible 6.5 lb. trigger. I had it changed out to an Ultimate Match trigger group and now it is a smooth 3.5 lb.  I can hit 8" steel plates at 15' with it, but not farther.  My 72 year old eyes need a dot.  So I'm going to keep the pistol and put one on.  It came with two 10 round mags.  I bought two additional mags (17 round) only because they were cheaper than the 10 round.  Go figure.  I would carry this pistol for duty, and the two 17 round mags as spares.  I might even load them fully.  It would depend on the weight and the distribution.

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This is a good business move for them to go after contracts, but they alienate all of their previous customers. Too bad as they could have had both if they did it right. Tony P looks like a clown.

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don't even list 'competition' as one of their uses on their main page, sad...  tell you what though, my bil got a staccato p and an xl and they're both VERY nice guns and the xl has an incredible trigger.  i love my old school sti's though (eagle, edge, tac, dvc open, steel master).

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I don't understand why everyone is so butthurt about this shift...

 

All they are missing now is legit open guns. The P and XL will still serve as great competition guns for 3Gun and USPSA LTD.

 

I would guess that their Open guns were a financial "liability" due to shadetree gunsmiths creating as many or more issues than they resolved and then expecting STI to fix them. They still have "competition" guns with a different look and can also market them to non-competition shooters too.

 

What's the problem...?

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Not to pick on wgj3, but the XL is $1400 more than the edge and is the only model they offer in .40

The P does not come in .40.

The R is a single stack.

 

I tend to take things personal, but that says to me that HEY LIMITED DIVISION SHOOTERS!!! TAKE A FLYING LEAP.--and considering STI dominated Limited Div, thats a big deal.

 

The name change: meh.  The new lineup says to me, my (USPSA) business is wanted elsewhere.  And I was a defender of theirs when people said there stuff wouldn't run.  Mine runs great.  But my new one will not be STI.  At that price?  Just go custom.  Its nuts.

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1 hour ago, wgj3 said:

I would guess that their Open guns were a financial "liability" due to shadetree gunsmiths creating as many or more issues than they resolved and then expecting STI to fix them. They still have "competition" guns with a different look and can also market them to non-competition shooters too.

 

I'm not sure the shade tree gunsmiths caused all the poor fitting on the barrels (that came from the factory that way), cracked slides, cracked comps, poorly machined parts, etc.  Fact of the matter is, they put out crap products and lost their a** due to all the warranty repair costs.  As for the current business model, chances of it working out are probably close to zero.  To start, the vast majority of government procurements for this type of item are not for a specific brand, model, etc.  The agency publishes a set of requirements, and the company that meets those requirements at the lowest cost gets the contract.  So all the submitted items are tested for things like accuracy, durability, drop test, etc., and then those who survive that, get to compete on price.  Is there any chance that STI/Succado is going to come out of that scenario ahead of Glock, Sig, SW, etc.?  I doubt it.

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I don't understand why everyone is so butthurt about this shift...
 
All they are missing now is legit open guns. The P and XL will still serve as great competition guns for 3Gun and USPSA LTD.
 
I would guess that their Open guns were a financial "liability" due to shadetree gunsmiths creating as many or more issues than they resolved and then expecting STI to fix them. They still have "competition" guns with a different look and can also market them to non-competition shooters too.
 
What's the problem...?
First, I think it's price point plain and simple. Edges were the quintessential limited gun and everyone just delt with all the quirks because it was the only big name 2011 at that magical 2k price point. Honestly, the Stacatto XL looks really nice, but not $3500 nice. For that money you can easily buy a semi-custom with a steel grip from a smaller shop with much lower production numbers. It's like buying a $3500 Ruger as an over exaggeration.

Secondly, I think a lot of competition shooters have been majorly soured with the garbage quality control on their pistols in the last few years. Cracked slides, crappy finishing work, guns being shipped with the sights backwards, etc. All of this seems like it has been fixed already with the new line, but until some of that rep is earned back, it's just another turd with some new polish.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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It seems some of you cannot read, it's not about contracts, it's about individual sales and they are selling/shipping 80 guns a day according to Tony.    As far as the name change goes, who cares.  SVI changed their name 10 years ago to Infinity firearms, but 99% of shooters still refer to them as SV or SVI.  I like the name STI, but can certainly see why they want to change it.  It's their company and their call to make.  

This is an easy call to make.  If you don't like what they are selling don't buy it.  I've had much more expensive guns not run as good as these pistols have so far.  While I'm not into the 10's of thousands yet, I'm working on it and have been very pleased so far.

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Posted (edited)

Reading this thread has kind of just reminded me that the paradigm shift with STI really already occurred circa 2015-2016... before then, they were putting out mostly great quality guns for not too much money. I was even able to do a search and find their old 2015 catalog, and they used to have a really great line.
It wasn’t that long ago when you could honestly put a $1200-1500 STI 1911 up against a $3K+ Wilson/Nighthawk/Baer/Brown and chances are, if you were really honestly going to shoot it a lot, the STI’s were sometimes (more often than not) the better guns... and of course those were the first models to get dropped.

 

I don’t know the timeline of when the company went from 100% employee-owned to private, but there were definitely a few years there where one was getting a gun that punched above it’s weight for what they cost at the time.

 

This name change and makeover to “Gucci pseudo tactical” probably shouldn’t be that surprising really, the company kind of lost its way a while ago and hasn’t really been putting out the same stuff that made them for years now while they’ve been playing around with their identity. In fact, the name change probably has a lot to do with getting away from the rep that used to be great but was sullied over the last 4-5 years on the first try at changing it up with the Costa Ludis/DVC era stuff.


Not butthurt about it at all, but it is a shame to see such a small but still hugely influential shop like STI disappear. From what I’ve read they’re making a big push as far as getting their quality back and getting back on the ball and making good guns, they just had a really good thing going on that they could’ve just tried to reclaim, rather than reinvent.

JMHO.

Edited by ck1
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I understand the economics of it. Last I read there were 30k USPSA members or so. I imagine IDPA and 3gun are not larger. 
 

There are probably 600k+ LEOs in the US so the math makes sense for them. 
 

Also, they have demand for their product. From what I hear, they are selling at retail. If you follow the 2011 Enthusiast FB page, it has turned into the “Staccato this” and “Staccato that” page. I can’t fault them for making a pivot toward a profitable customer base and a market that wants high capacity and cool factor. Most of those shooters aren’t going to wear out their pistols and customize everything the way many competition shooter would. It does not surprise me that StickAuto has little enthusiasm for a relatively small market of folks who break their gear.  
 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RangerTrace said:

It seems some of you cannot read, it's not about contracts, it's about individual sales and they are selling/shipping 80 guns a day according to Tony.

 

I'm curious as to how many federal, state and local agencies authorize these for duty use.  I thought I saw a number somewhere, but can't find it.  Most around here don't allow a single action of any type unless you're SWAT or some other specialized role.  I'm sure it's different in other parts of the country and various federal agencies.

Edited by ltdmstr
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I'm the first to admit I don't understand big business, but it seems it would have been better to copy the car companies and have different "badges" to cater to different markets.  Leave the STI line to competition (it got them where they are), and establish a new brand (Stacatto) to cater to a different market.  Think Ford - Mercury, Chevrolet, Buick, Toyota - Lexus.

 

That way you would be following Marketing theory and growing, but no abandoning your base.

 

In my opinion.

 

 

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i have few friends with old  STI  G.M. open guns that still tight and  works perfectly in 9mm minor.

now  with new name  who want pay  $3500  such a price for a stuck 😉  gun?

 
 
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36 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

I'm curious as to many federal, state and local agencies authorize these for duty use.  I thought I saw a number somewhere, but can't find it.  Most around here don't allow a single action of any type unless you're SWAT or some other specialized role.  I'm sure it's different in other parts of the country and various federal agencies.

 

LAPD and the Los Angeles Sheriff Department have authorized STI 2011s for duty use within the last couple years. Officer in both departments have to go through a transition school, before carrying the 1911/2011 platform. The STIs (Staccato) are not issued and are privately purchased by the officer. My "tactical" STI has been relatively flawless for the two years that I have owned it. As long as it is not neglected, it is an excellent duty gun. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, SJBriggs said:

 

 My "tactical" STI has been relatively flawless for the two years that I have owned it. As long as it is not neglected, it is an excellent duty gun. 

 

what do u mean "relatively flawless"😉? like g17?

Edited by yigal
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1 hour ago, SJBriggs said:

Had to adjust the extractor after about 15k. Very reliable gun.

15k .good timing for 1911 platform .

with properly adjusted extractor /ejector 2011/1911  it's the most reliable gun that i know. more than any glock.

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Posted (edited)

Glock, here before STI, and still going strong. as Robin Williams once said " oh I know I'm going straight to hell for this one " lol

Edited by usmc1974
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