Moving from CO to Open

[apoc4lypse]

Hi guys, I'm currently shooting Carry Optics at the M->GM level (in practice anyway) but have been thinking of moving into Open for SCSA and eventually USPSA.  I've never shot an Open gun before, but in looking at the time differential between CO and Open, it seems like the Open times per run range from around .13s to .42s shorter than in CO. 

 

I would think that the Open-specific equipment like your race holster, compensator, SA trigger, and frame mounted vs. slide mounted red dot would be more than enough to make up for the time difference so that if you're shooting in the GM level at CO, you should be able to maintain that in Open.  Am I correct or being too optimistic?

 

For those of you who have made the transition, did you think CO was harder or easier than Open?

 

In reading the above, maybe it's self evident that Open is easier since the GM times are lower than in CO... but what are your thoughts?

[ChuckS]

Remember to include major scoring in your analysis!

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, apoc4lypse said:

Hi guys, I'm currently shooting Carry Optics at the M->GM level (in practice anyway) but have been thinking of moving into Open for SCSA and eventually USPSA.  I've never shot an Open gun before, but in looking at the time differential between CO and Open, it seems like the Open times per run range from around .13s to .42s shorter than in CO. 

 

I would think that the Open-specific equipment like your race holster, compensator, SA trigger, and frame mounted vs. slide mounted red dot would be more than enough to make up for the time difference so that if you're shooting in the GM level at CO, you should be able to maintain that in Open.  Am I correct or being too optimistic?

 

For those of you who have made the transition, did you think CO was harder or easier than Open?

 

In reading the above, maybe it's self evident that Open is easier since the GM times are lower than in CO... but what are your thoughts?

Everything in Open is exponentially faster. You say you are practicing at M GM level? I assume you are timing actual USPSA Classifiers? If you are just insert OPEN instead of CO into the classifier calculator and see what it tells you.

[apoc4lypse]

I guess my post was not as clear as I thought.  I'm shooting Steel Challenge stages so yeah they are all classifiers.  My question is, for those of you who have moved from CO to Open, did you find that shooting Open with Open equipment was easier or harder than shooting CO with CO equipment?  Did your classification basically transfer over or was there a learning curve involved?

 

Comparing my CO scores to the Open score times isn't really effective as it's not apples to apples - I don't have Open equipment.

[zzt]

There is a learning curve involved.  A frame mounted dot sits higher than a slide mounted dot, and requires a lot of dry firing and real firing practice to adapt.  The gun will handle differently.  How much difference will depend on your popple and or comp configuration and your load.  Most of the Open SCSA shooters I shoot with also use that gun for USPSA shooting major.  So they run between 140-150PF for SCSA.  Some, like me, have dedicated SCSA and USPSA guns, so you can optimize the loads for each.  

Edited May 22, 2020 by zzt

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, apoc4lypse said:

I guess my post was not as clear as I thought.  I'm shooting Steel Challenge stages so yeah they are all classifiers.  My question is, for those of you who have moved from CO to Open, did you find that shooting Open with Open equipment was easier or harder than shooting CO with CO equipment?  Did your classification basically transfer over or was there a learning curve involved?

 

Comparing my CO scores to the Open score times isn't really effective as it's not apples to apples - I don't have Open equipment.

Open scores will give you an idea of how much faster things need to happen. But yeah, steel challenge is different from real USPSA. I would shoot a minor Open gun In SC if I get too old to keep running around trying to keep up.

[Nimitz]

On 5/21/2020 at 8:56 PM, apoc4lypse said:

 

 

In reading the above, maybe it's self evident that Open is easier since the GM times are lower than in CO... but what are your thoughts?

your thinking is backwards ...

 

faster times are MUCH harder to achieve than slower times.  look at RFPO as compared to open, then pick up a rimfire gun and try to make those times.  that being said, if you are a true GM in one division, with a little bit of work you should be able to make GM in others

[Hammer002]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 8:43 AM, zzt said:

There is a learning curve involved.  A frame mounted dot sits higher than a slide mounted dot, and requires a lot of dry firing and real firing practice to adapt.  The gun will handle differently.  How much difference will depend on your popple and or comp configuration and your load.  Most of the Open SCSA shooters I shoot with also use that gun for USPSA shooting major.  So they run between 140-150PF for SCSA.  Some, like me, have dedicated SCSA and USPSA guns, so you can optimize the loads for each.  

 

23 hours ago, Nimitz said:

your thinking is backwards ...

 

faster times are MUCH harder to achieve than slower times.  look at RFPO as compared to open, then pick up a rimfire gun and try to make those times.  that being said, if you are a true GM in one division, with a little bit of work you should be able to make GM in others

 

Both of these quotes are spot on. 

 

I'm guessing you might be fairly new to Steel Challenge or shooting in general.  We all learn very quickly practice times rarely reproduce in competition.  It also depends on what you are calling practice.  That term can get a bit broad.  If you have not been competing already, shoot what you have!  Especially don't try to jump into open!!  There is a high learning curve and open can be downright dangerous when it comes to the reloading part of things.  Both of the guys above, as well as myself, will confirm for you Open is WAY different than CO.  I actually went to CO from Open.  Loved my Tanfo, but the expense in properly making ammo and the wear and tear on the gun just didn't fit my desire to practice heavily.  Open gun has a completely different hold/grip.  A different recoil impulse.  As said, the dot on the slide behaves differently than frame mounted.  CO has several equipment or set up restrictions such as where and how high the holster can be mounted, the type of holster (don't really think that matters as much as people think), and the trinkets on the gun such as gas pedals, magwells, etc.  All of these things can equate to personal advantages from person to person.  Tuning the load is different as well.  The open gun with the comp allows running higher velocity rounds to activate the comp.  I found this to work better than extremely light loads.  Everybody finds their way.

 

Ken is right though.  You cant just look at a division, see that it's peak times are faster, and assume the same will be true for you.  Open has been around a long time and the scores are basically where they should be.  CO is still new, and went untouched in the peak time adjustments solely due to not having enough times to make a clear determination.  It WILL get faster.  They are ALL getting faster.  Guys are breaking 60 seconds now over and over.  Steve Foster just shoot the fastest ever total score this weekend.  Beating both our buddies Grand Kunkel and Chris Barret who have also broken 60 seconds.  The idea is shoot what you shoot well.  I mess in the pistols, but rifles are my bread and butter.  Careful thinking you can jump into open.  That's a lot of investment with a lot to know.  And if anything is more likely to blow up in your hand, its a 9mm major more than anything else.

[drysideshooter]

What Hammer002 said about practice not translating to an actual match is very true.  Have you shot in an actual match yet?  It's much different when you have an RO holding the timer and your fellow competitors are watching.  Practice is somewhat like a football team's offense practicing without the defense being on the field.  It's a lot easier to execute everything well without added pressure.  After a day of practice it's easy to remember your fastest time for each stage.  

 

Practice is the place to perfect draws, transitions, and figure out the best order for you to shoot the targets.  Practicing with a timer is an important way to measure improvements or assess different techniques.  Quite a few folks practice like Max Michelle, but come match day their times are somewhat slower.